25-10-2002 04:10									#1
	The Relationship between City Size & Graphic Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

To quote from the Civ Manual:

"Cities come in four sizes: Small (1-3), Medium (4-5), Large (6-7), and Extra Large (8+). Note that a civilizations capital is never displayed as small."

That's very nice, but I'd REALLY like to change those numbers! I reviewed the Hex Edit documentation, but this isn't discussed there. Has anyone else been able to modify this relationship, or is it one more unsolved mystery?

(The fact that Capital Cities are treated differently implies that the values can be modified)

	25-10-2002 04:29									#2
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Sorry, not a hex whiz, but curious.

Hmmm! Mountain passes and big cities. Can you give another hint?

	25-10-2002 04:32									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Boco Hmmm! Mountain passes and big cities. Can you give another hint?

Be careful what you ask for - you might wind up playtesting! (again)

	25-10-2002 05:03									#4
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Well..... in (cough) Test of Time, you can. Early cities of all 4 styles are the same as FW/MGE. Industrial cities are: small (1-4), medium (5-7), large (8-10) and extra-large (11+). Modern and renaissance cities are: small (1-4), medium (5-10), large (11-18), and extra-large (19+). Don't ask me why renaissance cities have the same progression as modern ones!

	25-10-2002 07:55									#5
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Well..... in (cough) Test of Time, you can.

	25-10-2002 10:28									#6
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The above statement by tecumseh applies to normal civ as well as far as I know (apart from the renaiscanse cities which don't get a specific city style).
Don't think those settings can be changed though...

	25-10-2002 22:28									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Henrik The above statement by tecumseh applies to normal civ as well as far as I know (apart from the renaiscanse cities which don't get a specific city style).

I tested this and Henrik is 100% correct!! YES! I'll have to make some changes, but suffice it to say that now Paris can be the only French City with the Eiffel Tower! (My earlier solution involved the "cities with/without walls" method and that caused more problems than it solved)

Thanks Guys!!!

	26-10-2002 02:27									#8
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Aha! Andorra invades France!

	26-10-2002 03:07									#9
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Damn. Another convert lost!

	26-10-2002 07:27									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Boco Aha! Andorra invades France!

Rats! The secret is out! As you cleverly guessed, this is an "alternate history" scenario in which the large nations of 1930's Europe are ruled by pacifist leaders, while Fascist governments have taken control of Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino, Monaco, Danzig, and Luxembourg! Together these nations form the evil "Midget Axis" and prepare to unleash the horrors of Fourteenth Century War upon their unsuspecting (and utterly oblivious) neighbors!

The most groundbreaking scenario since "Gambia", "Midget Axis" will stun and amaze those who can stay awake through the opening credits!

	26-10-2002 07:38									#11
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Kull- I missed this: how does building the eiffel tower only in Paris help?

	26-10-2002 07:46									#12
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No no, he means the tower itself is in the city gfx. Right?

	26-10-2002 07:52									#13
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quote: Originally posted by The ANZAC Kull- I missed this: how does building the eiffel tower only in Paris help?

I can see the confusion. This isn't about the Eiffel Tower Wonder but rather a way to have a city graphic (containing the Arc d' Triomphe and Eiffel Tower) appear in only one city. By ensuring that only the French have the "Modern City" style and that no other French cities exceed size 18, only Paris will "look like Paris".

The scenario would work fine if Paris looked like any other large French city, but it's so much cooler that she has her own special graphic.

	26-10-2002 12:02									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Kull Fascist governments have taken control of Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino, Monaco, Danzig, and Luxembourg!

Pius XII wisely keeps the Vatican neutral, I see.

	26-10-2002 13:15									#15
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San Marino... The old arch enemy...

	26-10-2002 13:37									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Henrik San Marino... The old arch enemy...

Da Polenta and Malatesta, be afraid for your lives!!!!

	26-10-2002 18:00									#17
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quote: Da Polenta and Malatesta, be afraid for your lives!!!!

Sounds like I'll need to enroll in the "I Malatesta Italian Language and Cultural Centre" (http://www.imalatesta.com/) to learn Italian in two weeks in order to understand this one. Btw, the site has a graphic for the Italian flag that's suitable for an improvement icon.

Or are we talking about flowing mountains of anarchic polenta mush overrunning cities? Build the Strega Nona witch wonder to counter this evil magic!

	27-10-2002 01:56									#18
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Kull you could achive your goal by

• Give the french the Modern city style
  
• changing sewer size to 18
  
• build a sewer in Paris
  
• make sewers imposible to build
  

	27-10-2002 02:14									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Boco Sounds like I'll need to enroll in the "I Malatesta Italian Language and Cultural Centre" (http://www.imalatesta.com/) to learn Italian in two weeks in order to understand this one.

Save your money, then.

Malatesta and Da Polenta - even more then Montefeltro's family - were two powerful landlords' families, arch-enemies of St Marino's republic.

Gracias for your tip, Will!!!

	27-10-2002 07:44									#20
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Thanks WK - although I'm using a slightly different methodology. Since the scenario is large and covers a fairly short time frame, all cities will be "fixed" at their initial sizes (growth is impossible).

I was thinking - maybe the Vatican SHOULD be included. Just think of it......halberd-bearing Swiss Guards taking on a Panzer Division.....and it's not like they have no chance - this IS Civ2! Also, was Malta independent @ 1930? If so, they're another "Axis" candidate. If only Montenegro wasn't swallowed up by Yugoslavia after WW1.......

	27-10-2002 08:34									#21
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If only Montenegro wasn't swallowed up by Yugoslavia after WW1.......

They can always have an Axis-sponsored fight for independence.

	27-10-2002 08:44									#22
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What about Albania? I've always wanted to play as King Zog!

	27-10-2002 11:11									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Prometeus Malatesta and Da Polenta - even more then Montefeltro's family - were two powerful landlords' families, arch-enemies of St Marino's republic.

Sweden was at war with san marino for nearly 400 years (1617- ca:1970-1980), beat that

	27-10-2002 11:23									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Kull Also, was Malta independent @ 1930? If so, they're another "Axis" candidate.

Nope. British colony.

	30-10-2002 03:34									#25
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I just realised this: You CAN have unique city graphics. Free Flight did this with his Rohan/ Gondor cities in the "return of the king" by giving city walls only to Gondor. Now, I push this a little further and say why dont you give city walls only to the cities you want to give a unique look to, per city style set (i.e. give city walls only to Paris and give the Medieval style only to the French). Disconect city walls from the tech tree, so that no more walls can be built. This way, even if other cities exceed the population barrier or if Paris population drops, you can still see the Eifel tower just in Paris. Plus you can have 6 such cities (Moscow/ Kremlin London, Berlin, Rome etc.). The added defence for the capitals only makes sense too! Try it.

	30-10-2002 04:01									#26
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Sorry to break it to you, but he considered that idea

quote: (My earlier solution involved the "cities with/without walls" method and that caused more problems than it solved)

	30-10-2002 07:00									#27
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Wont walls be destroyed either upon capture, or even during the fight for the city? Do city improvements get destroyed during the fight, or upon capture anyway?

-FMK.

	30-10-2002 07:58									#28
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Improvements aren't destroyed during the fight (that's a Civ3 feature), but some are always lost when the city changes hands. Someone else did a study on this, but I think improvements fall into two groups, and one of those is always destroyed when a city changes hands (even if the city is undefended)

That's one of the problems with designing two different city types on the basis of "with walls/without walls". The only way to guarantee that separation is for the "with walls" civ to own the Great Wall Wonder (and it better be in a "safe" city!) while the "w/o walls" civ is prevented from ever building them (of course if they capture some OTHER civs city and IT has walls.....well, you can see the complexity!)

The technique can work, but not in all scenarios.

	30-10-2002 15:14									#29
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Moreover, if say "Berlin gets captured by the Soviets" with its walls intact, you 'll have two Kremlins in the map. Didn't think of that.

	30-10-2002 16:13									#30
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Hmm... Kremlin in Berlin is quite an interesting idea. Maybe someone could convince Mr. Wowereit of that instead of rebuilding the old (and very boring) city palace...
Apart from that, I demand an invasion by newly-independent Nauru into Schleswig Holstein!