26-10-2002 00:40									#61
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by connorkimbro The amount of the defense budget really doesn't matter for ****. What percent the defense budget is of the overall GDP is what OUGHT to be compared. And does anyone know what kind of results you get from that calculation? I'll give ya a hint, the US is nowhere NEAR the top.

That's already been discussed. For the record, IMO, the amount of the defense budget is FAR MORE important than what it is as a percentage of GDP. The latter only measures how well a country can (presumably) afford the level of spending it has. In terms of calculating military strength in absolute or relative terms, it is totally meaningless.

Again, it comes down to how much do you ultimately need. Dan and CG argue that there are ulterior motives behind the US expenditure, others may not. It still doesn't change the fact that Saudi Arabia at 50% of GDP (even though it's really 14.5%) still couldn't hold a candle to the US at 1% (even though it's really 3-4%)

	26-10-2002 00:44									#62
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: The above post is why people should read threads before they post.

Hmm, yes, you're right, sorry.

quote: It still doesn't change the fact that Saudi Arabia at 50% of GDP (even though it's really 14.5%) still couldn't hold a candle to the US at 1% (even though it's really 3-4%)

Ok. I thought the crux of the argument was something else entirely, so, nevermind. Thanks for filling me in on what i should have read in the first place, though.

	26-10-2002 05:11									#63
	Suffering from ads?

Well excessive is relative after all...

I mean given some of the % GDP levels mentioned by Kontiki, the US at 4% could be deemed as very low - though many of the higher rates are by non democratic countries and Russia's is skewed because they have the security forces of the largest country to maintain with a completely tanked economy!

But it is about perceived threat - which these days is almost entirely unconventional. Does the US need such a large conventional force to tackle terrorism? I don't think so...

Personally I think the US military is still stuck in the past in a conventional sense - there just are no conventional armies around that could even hold a candle to even a fraction of the US'. Yet the US maintains more aircraft carriers than the rest of the World many times over. Yet they still try to push conventional Dinosaurs through the defence budget like that moronic plan to develop and deploy those gigantic SP guns earlier this year that we talked about! Well at least they saw the sense in that one eh?

Still, it is their money and 4% of GDP isn't that much, and while they do that we can get on with spending our money on important stuff such as a decent health or education system instead...

Just as long as they don't think they own the place...

	26-10-2002 05:26									#64
	Tired of ads?

MOBIUS, you're such an American apologist.

	26-10-2002 06:13									#65
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Kontiki FISCAL YEAR 2002 — BUDGET AUTHORITY (Dollars in Billions) Military Personnel $82.3 Operations and Maintenance $125.7 Procurement $61.6 Research and Development $47.4 Military Construction $5.9 Family Housing $4.1 Other $1.9 In other words, the US is spending approximately 57% on ops, maintenance and procurement. That's over $187 billion.

One Submarine today cost 1 billion, 1 Aircraft Carrier cost between 2 and 3 billion, so if you just build one Carrier and Sub., you have just spent 4 billion of the 61.6 for the year.
It has been reported that during the Clinton years we did not buy any new Planes, Ships, Tanks etc. The items that were produces during these year was authorized in prior years before Clinton.

	26-10-2002 06:51									#66
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by DanS MOBIUS, you're such an American apologist.

What's it to be? One minute I'm Anti American and the next I'm an American Apologist...

People are always leaping to conclusions...

	26-10-2002 07:48									#67
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Lonestar would like to point out that he is a member of an all-volunteer Navy, and as such the USN has to do a lot more to keep us worker bees happy.

For instance, I suspect our base salary, Health Care, dental, housing allowance, "BAS"(food), "immient danger pay", "Sea pay", "Relective re-enlistment bonus", Morale Welfare and Recreation is all wwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaayyyyyy higher than the case nations with conscription armies fork out.

Oh yeah. Forgot 100% payed College tuition.

And you wonder why the American defense budget is so large....

Which is not to say I wouldn't mind a pay raise.

	26-10-2002 09:04									#68
	Tired of ads?

i wonder which country gets the most bang for their buck? isreal? our(usa) budget seemed bloated and inefficient given that spending has stayed roughly the same but they'e cut back quite a lot in the 90s i thought...

	27-10-2002 02:20									#69
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Personally I think the US military is still stuck in the past in a conventional sense - there just are no conventional armies around that could even hold a candle to even a fraction of the US'. Yet the US maintains more aircraft carriers than the rest of the World many times over.

Well what happens if we sit on our hands and say we're big enough. Suddenly someone else begins challenging our military lead (China, perhaps). Constant updating is needed to keep ahead by a relatively same margin (though the Chinese are rapidly catching up).

	27-10-2002 03:49									#70
	Suffering from ads?

Israels powerful army doesnt seem to be proportional to the defense budget, only 9 billions.

I bet they spend even more.

	27-10-2002 03:52									#71
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Here's the previous top 25 in percentage of GDP - the %ages are from 2000, so there won't be a perfect match:

How about percentage of the government budget. When past and future wars are factored in, we spend more than half our government budget on war.

	27-10-2002 03:53									#72
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Well, they also get billions in military aid from the US. My understanding is that we give them something like 3 billion in aid every year that they must spend on military procurements from US contractors. Could be wrong, just something I heard somewhere.

	27-10-2002 04:00									#73
	Support Apolyton

"When past and future wars are factored in, we spend more than half our government budget on war."

Don't know where you get that sound-bite, Che. Even if you only consider discretionary spending plus interest on the debt as the "government budget", you don't get there. This doesn't even consider Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and other "mandatory" spending in the mix.

	27-10-2002 16:50									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hey, look who's NOT on the top 25 list!

Iraq $1.4
North Korea $1.3
Libya $1.2
Suria $0.8
Cuba $0.7
Yugoslavia $0.5

Do you still insist that these countries could be a threat to the US?

I wonder what Singapore does with $4.3BN, considering it's so tiny...

	27-10-2002 16:54									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Suria?

What the hell is Suria?

	27-10-2002 23:11									#76
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Suria? What the hell is Suria?

Some made-up Greek country, I imagine.

	27-10-2002 23:48									#77
	Suffering from ads?

I'm disappointed that nobody has said this yet.

USA!!! USA!!!

	28-10-2002 00:27									#78
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It goes without saying Felch.

	28-10-2002 02:52									#79
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It goes without saying Felch.

Don't forget...

"USA: The Arsenal of Democracy."

	28-10-2002 02:58									#80
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Don't forget... "USA: The Arsenal of Democracy."

Unfortunatelyl Arsenal have lost their last three competitive games, all due to dodgy Seaman.

	28-10-2002 03:00									#81
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I'm mildly insulted.

Seaman Apprentice Lonestar.

	28-10-2002 03:06									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Not so able Seaman.

	28-10-2002 03:14									#83
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by DanS "When past and future wars are factored in, we spend more than half our government budget on war." Don't know where you get that sound-bite, Che. Even if you only consider discretionary spending plus interest on the debt as the "government budget", you don't get there. This doesn't even consider Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and other "mandatory" spending in the mix.

Okay, you're right. Currently past, present, and future wars only account for 46% of the budget.


The War Resisters' League.

	28-10-2002 03:18									#84
	Got spare money?

quote: For those who sought revenge, an “eye-for-an-eye” has been met and surpassed, with estimates of up to 4,000 innocent civilians killed in Afghanistan along with unknown numbers of Taliban or Al Qaeda fighters.

Please tell me that this isn't based on the study that was discredited here months ago. Because if it is, I would put much credence into the rest of thier figures.

	28-10-2002 03:23									#85
	Suffering from ads?

Che: OK, now that we've straightened out your numbers, let's move on to the rhetoric. Not including the vast majority of social programs in these calculations makes the conclusion meaningless in anything other than a soundbite. Certainly not illuminating.

	01-11-2002 04:37									#86
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Can anyone find data on the size of each country's military industry (annual sales in BN$)? It would be interesting to see who are the biggest net exporters and who are the biggest net importers of weapons. Then it wouldn't be difficult to see who the real warmongers are.

	01-11-2002 05:28									#87
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus you don't need your army for defense. who's going to invade you? the cold war is over.

Just because Europeans have a fetish for fighting wars in their own countries doesn't mean we have to. We would rather fight wars over seas then here at home.

	01-11-2002 08:15									#88
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Saint Marcus, I think you are fooled because we call it the Defense Department. There is an old saying in sport, the best defense is a good offense.

	01-11-2002 08:21									#89
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

heh heh

europe is fooled by our defence department

maybe they are fooled by UN peacekeepers also?

maybe we should rename the defense department, the peace department to help releive their confusion

Jon Miller

	01-11-2002 09:17									#90
	Put an end to popups!

Our military budgest isn't low at all considering how we need to have troops ready to fight the War of Terror, we are on the verge of war with Iraq, and we want to keep far ahead of potential competitors such as China.