03-11-2002 09:54									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

so what's the latest draft of the polling part of the constitution? and why are you mixing in a bill of rights into this thread?

	03-11-2002 20:19									#32
	Increase Your PM Length

Yeah the Bill of Rights got accidently mixed.
Here is the latest, really small things were changed since the last:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Article: Bill of Rights

1. Any person who has registered to participate in this Democracy Game in the Citizen Registry is considered a Citizen. No person shall be denied the right to become a Citizen.

2. No Citizen shall ever be denied the right to vote in any poll and to keep this vote private.

3. Freedom of speech and the right to associate into any form of organization shall not be denied unless it violates Apolyton rules.

4. No citizen may be punished in any way without the consent of the Court. Still no one shall be banned permanently from participating in the Democracy Game, excluding those who are permanently banned from Apolyton. Note that people may still be banned for any amount of time, as long as it is not permanent.

5. The government may not knowingly hide information or give false information to the people. Therefore all citizens shall have access to the saved games. However, no Citizen shall ever 'play ahead'.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Article: Polling

1. Definition and validity:

(a) All official decision making will be done through polls, in which Citizens can express their opinion on issues. A poll is the standard vBB poll feature in which people can anonymously vote for 1 or more of a list of options.
(b) Any Poll that is not Unofficial (see section 3) and that violates any of the rules specified in this Article is invalid. The Court has the right to rule over the validity of polls. Invalid polls should be considered Unofficial and may be closed if the Court requests this.

2. Voting Rights:

(a) All Citizens have the right to vote in any poll.
(b) No Citizen shall be forced to vote for any poll.
(c) No Citizen is allowed to vote more than once.
(c) Non-Citizens are not allowed to vote in any poll except Unofficial ones.
(d) When it is known that non-Citizens have voted in a poll and it is also known what they have voted, this poll is valid if the votes by non-Citizens are removed from the final result.
(e) When the things in 2(d) are not known but there is a reasonable suspicion that non-Citizens have voted in a poll, the Court may declare this poll invalid.
(f) Any polls started by non-citizens will be regarded Unofficial and may be closed if the Court requests this.

3. Poll Organization:

(a) The first post of all polls must contain the following elements:
* A clear and unbiased explanation of the question and the answers, if needed;
* Expiration date, if applicable;
* Links to related threads or other information sources, if any;
* Type (see section 4) and nature of the poll: information gathering or decision making.
(b) Two types of poll organization are allowed: Yes/No polls and multiple choice polls.
(c) Yes/No polls must have three options of which only one can be chosen. The three options must be:
* Yes, meaning that the voter agrees with what was stated in the poll;
* No, meaning that the voter does not agree with what was stated in the poll;
* Abstain, meaning that the voter does not have a specific opinion on what was stated in the poll or does not wish to express it. Abstain votes may not be considered to say anything about what was stated in the poll.
(d) Alternative terms for 'Yes' and 'No' may be used in a Yes/No poll, as long as their meaning is along the same lines as 'Yes' and 'No' (examples: 'I agree'/'I don't agree' or 'In favour'/'Against'). Terms are along the same lines as 'Yes' and 'No' when the question in the poll can be rephrased so that it can be answered with 'Yes' or 'No'.
(e) Multiple choice polls must have at least three options of which only one can be chosen. Such polls must at least have an Abstain option as defined in section 3(c). All other options are open for the poll creator to fill in as he wishes, as long as they are clear and unbiased.

4. Poll Types:

There are 5 types of polls: Election polls, Official polls, Resolutions, Amendments and Unofficial polls.

I. Election polls:
(a) These polls must be started by the Court. They serve to elect the persons who will fulfill the official positions of the executive and judicial branches of the government, as defined in Article I and Article II of this Constitution.
(b) The subject line must contain the word 'ELECTION', written in capital letters, and the name of the office for which the election is held.
(c) They have to be multiple choice polls with only the names of the candidates as options. They can only be decision-making polls, they cannot be used for not information gathering.
(e) They must follow the rules as defined in Article V of this Constitution.

II. Official polls:
(a) These polls must be started by members of the executive branch of the government, as defined in Article I of this Constitution, and relate to the game.
(b) The subject line must contain the word 'OFFICIAL', written in capital letters.
(c) They can be either Yes/No or multiple choice polls and can be used for either information gathering or decision making.
(d) The government official who started the poll may or may not follow the opinion of the majority of the voters. In case (s)he does not follow what was decided, (s)he must make this decision public. Failure to do so will be regarded withholding of information, as defined in Article IV section 7, and can serve as grounds for Impeachment (see Article VI).

III. Resolutions:
(a) These polls can be started by any Citizen, including members of the governement, and must be used to propose resolutions. resolutions, if passed, modify the rules that clearly affect the course of the game or the policy of the executive branch of the government government (as defined in Article I of this Constitution).
(b) The subject line must contain the word 'RESOLUTION', written in capital letters.
(c) They have to be Yes/No polls. Multiple choice polls are not allowed as resolutions.
(d) resolutions may not violate or change the Constitution. Resolutions may change, amend or remove any existing resolutions or judicial decisions regarding resolutions.
(e) If more than 1/2 of the voters votes in favour of the resolution, at least 1/2 of all Citizens vote in the poll and the Court does not declare the poll invalid, the resolution is considered passed. All Citizens must from that time on obey it.
(f) A record must be kept of all resolutions that are passed, amended, or removed. The person who proposed a Law that has been passed must add this resolutions to the record as soon as possible.
(g) The Court will resolve all conflicts of resolutions. The Court’s ruling on an interpretation of a resolution is of the same power and authority as that resolution.

IV. Amendments:
(a) These polls can be started by any Citizen, including members of the governement, and must be used to propose Amendments to this Constitution.
(b) The subject line must contain the word 'AMENDMENT', written in capital letters.
(c) They have to be Yes/No polls. Multiple choice polls are not allowed as Ammendments.
(d) Amendments may override any existing Laws, judicial decisions regarding Laws or any number of existing sections of the Constitution.
(e) If more than 2/3 of the voters votes in favour of the Law, at least 1/2 of all Citizens vote in the poll and the Court does not declare the poll invalid, the Ammendent is considered passed. All Citizens must from that time on obey it.
(f) Amendments of the Constitution must be recorded by the Court. The person who proposed an Amendment that has been passed must inform the Court of this as soon as possible.

V. Unofficial polls:
(a) These polls can be started by any Citizen, including members of the government.
(b) They may only exist to debate or gather information. Their outcome should not affect the course of the game or the policy of the government.
(c) Unofficial polls are the only polls in which more than one option may be chosen from the list of options.
(d) They do not have to follow all the rules specified in this Article. However, rules specified in Article IV of this Constitution must still be obeyed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Although RunsWithDwarfs made a comment about the resolution type of poll that should be looked at:

quote: Originally posted by RunsWithDwarf if you have 5 or more citizens, and each one of them has a different opinion on what's to be done and they all decide to file suit. Do you see what I'm getting at here?

	04-11-2002 09:42									#33
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

your going to run into huge trouble trying to pass an amendment, there is no way you'll be able to keep half of everyone who joins from leaving. The 1/2 of population part needs to be taken out. and a time limit should be instituted for all official polls as well

	05-11-2002 05:11									#34
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by H Tower your going to run into huge trouble trying to pass an amendment, there is no way you'll be able to keep half of everyone who joins from leaving. The 1/2 of population part needs to be taken out.

I had stated earlier that this count probably should be dropped to 1/3 for the reason you mentioned. I am afraid that an amendment can be passed by a minority of the community.

quote: Originally posted by H Tower and a time limit should be instituted for all official polls as well

This is still to be determined since we (me at least) want to see the result of the How long does a turn takes thread.

	05-11-2002 05:18									#35
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

well, perhaps there should be some kind of record, counting people out of the citizenship, who haven't posted or voted here for some defined time.

	05-11-2002 12:35									#36
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Zaphod,

sounds like a bad idea....... Some people might be of for holiday, business-trip......whatever....... and might not be able to post for like 3 weeks....... Happened to myself already..........

Pedrunn (and other's)

I think we should try it with the 1/2 of the allowed voters and if it doesn't work out we can still change it later (although we would need 50% of the votes, sounds at least interesting..........)

BoR, 5: Why should they not keep information secret? It is being done to us in the real world as well, but here WE can make the difference and hopefully people will remember later, when it is time to crush vote again.

Otherwise BoR sounds good.

Polling:
1.
a: might sound minor, but

......anonymously vote, according to the poll's option (single/multiple)

b: I think there we have to wait for the officials to let us know if this is possible......(closing polls upon 'our' request)

2.
c. ????????? to clarify (at least how I understood) Each Citizen has only one vote per poll, unless it is a multiple choice poll?
second c I guess should be (d)

(d)=(e) Don't know if possible, to be checked again ..........
(f)=(g) same as above

But I like this idea, giving the court some power above this issue.

For the polling: I am not sure if we might not restrict ourself's from some options there. It could happen (can't think of anything right now) that there is a poll Y/N/A-type and just because how it has been asked people might just vote A(bstain) and no-one is happy....... Could be down to the court to decide on this, but............

Maybe we should make a threat for each article (and afterwards a poll about it). This way we nobody could moan about 'somebody' decided for him.

Locutus (or other officials):

When will the new system be active????????????????

	05-11-2002 15:35									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch Zaphod, sounds like a bad idea....... Some people might be of for holiday, business-trip......whatever....... and might not be able to post for like 3 weeks....... Happened to myself already..........

to me as well, you could renew your citizenship afterwards

	05-11-2002 15:42									#38
	Remove this text

sounds a bit over the top........ renew citizen-ship?????????

We want people to participate and have fun........ not to strike them with Bürokratie/Bureaucracy..........

And also some people just might not feel to 'post whatever' just to stay in............

	05-11-2002 20:59									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

well, i was rather thinking of long time spans, like for instance 3 months or longer.
the whole thing is meant to keep a little track of how many of the registered citizens are still alive (in the game ) at all

	06-11-2002 01:59									#40
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Zaphod Beeblebrox well, i was rather thinking of long time spans, like for instance 3 months or longer. the whole thing is meant to keep a little track of how many of the registered citizens are still alive (in the game ) at all

Keep track would be nice but really a pain for the citzens.
I am against.

I really believe that the minimum nunber of votes to make the poll valid should be 1/3 of the community. Or not have a limit at all

quote: if you have 5 or more citizens, and each one of them has a different opinion on what's to be done and they all decide to file suit. Do you see what I'm getting at here?

I can only think in giving the court the power to close thread that they think repetitive. Anyones has a better idea?

	06-11-2002 02:21									#41
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: 1. a: might sound minor, but ......anonymously vote, according to the poll's option (single/multiple)

Actually the "1 or more" stuff is totally wrong. Since you can onlt vote once for both types of Polls organization. I will fix that. Thanks for the tip.

quote: b: I think there we have to wait for the officials to let us know if this is possible......(closing polls upon 'our' request)

The court will close and has to explain why the thread was closed. The citizen could explain to the court that he wasnt wrong at all. Still if the court doesnt accept he could appeal with a resolution poll. If we get too much burocracy it will scare people off the game.

quote: 2. c. ????????? to clarify (at least how I understood) Each Citizen has only one vote per poll, unless it is a multiple choice poll? second c I guess should be (d)

I will fix that.

quote: (d)=(e) Don't know if possible, to be checked again .......... (f)=(g) same as above

They give diferent statement but are reductants in some parts. In the newer version i will try to condesate those topic.

quote: For the polling: I am not sure if we might not restrict ourself's from some options there. It could happen (can't think of anything right now) that there is a poll Y/N/A-type and just because how it has been asked people might just vote A(bstain) and no-one is happy....... Could be down to the court to decide on this, but............

If the thread is not clear. The court or any explicit post could ask the thread starter to be more specific.

quote: Maybe we should make a threat for each article (and afterwards a poll about it). This way we nobody could moan about 'somebody' decided for him.

There is a thread for every article. Didnt you noticed?
Just Bill of Rights and Poll scheme got accidently mixed up.

quote: When will the new system be active????????????????

When we finish it...
...
And have every article voted by the community

	06-11-2002 02:55									#42
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

UPDATE:
Check bold parts
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Article: Bill of Rights

1. Any person who has registered to participate in this Democracy Game in the Citizen Registry is considered a Citizen. No person shall be denied the right to become a Citizen.

2. No Citizen shall ever be in any poll denied the right to vote and to keep this vote private or be forced to vote by any reason.

3. Freedom of speech and the right to associate into any form of organization shall not be denied unless it violates Apolyton rules.

4. No citizen may be punished in any way without the consent of the Court. Still no one shall be banned permanently from participating in the Democracy Game, excluding those who are permanently banned from Apolyton. Note that people may still be banned for any amount of time, as long as it is not permanent.

5. The government may not knowingly hide information or give false information to the people. Therefore all citizens shall have access to the saved games. However, no Citizen shall ever 'play ahead'.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Article: Polling

1. Definition and validity:

(a) All official decision making will be done through polls, in which Citizens can express their opinion on issues. A poll is the standard vBB poll feature in which people can anonymously vote for 1 or more of a list of options.
(b) Any Poll that is not Unofficial (see section 3) and that violates any of the rules specified in this Article will be declared invalid.
(c) Any polls started by non-citizens will be declared invalid.
(d) The Court has the right to rule over the validity of polls. Invalid polls should be considered Unofficial and may be closed if the Court requests this.

2. Poll Organization:

(a) The first post of all polls must contain the following elements:
* A clear and unbiased explanation of the question and the answers, if needed;
* Expiration date, if applicable;
* Links to related threads or other information sources, if any;
* Type (see section 4) and nature of the poll: information gathering or decision making.
(b) Two types of poll organization are allowed: Yes/No polls and multiple choice polls.
(c) Yes/No polls must have three options of which only one can be chosen. The three options must be:
* Yes, meaning that the voter agrees with what was stated in the poll;
* No, meaning that the voter does not agree with what was stated in the poll;
* Abstain, meaning that the voter does not have a specific opinion on what was stated in the poll or does not wish to express it. Abstain votes may not be considered to say anything about what was stated in the poll.
(d) Alternative terms for 'Yes' and 'No' may be used in a Yes/No poll, as long as their meaning is along the same lines as 'Yes' and 'No' (examples: 'I agree'/'I don't agree' or 'In favour'/'Against'). Terms are along the same lines as 'Yes' and 'No' when the question in the poll can be rephrased so that it can be answered with 'Yes' or 'No'.
(e) Multiple choice polls must have at least three options of which only one can be chosen. Such polls must at least have an Abstain option as defined in section 3(c). All other options are open for the poll creator to fill in as he wishes, as long as they are clear and unbiased.

3. Poll Types:

There are 5 types of polls: Election polls, Official polls, Resolutions, Amendments and Unofficial polls.

I. Election polls:
(a) These polls must be started by the Court. They serve to elect the persons who will fulfill the official positions of the executive and judicial branches of the government, as defined in Article I and Article II of this Constitution.
(b) The subject line must contain the word 'ELECTION', written in capital letters, and the name of the office for which the election is held.
(c) They have to be multiple choice polls with only the names of the candidates as options. They can only be decision-making polls, they cannot be used for not information gathering.
(e) They must follow the rules as defined in Article V of this Constitution.

II. Official polls:
(a) These polls must be started by members of the executive branch of the government, as defined in Article I of this Constitution, and relate to the game.
(b) The subject line must contain the word 'OFFICIAL', written in capital letters.
(c) They can be either Yes/No or multiple choice polls and can be used for either information gathering or decision making.
(d) The government official who started the poll may or may not follow the opinion of the majority of the voters. In case (s)he does not follow what was decided, (s)he must make this decision public. Failure to do so will be regarded withholding of information, as defined in Article IV section 7, and can serve as grounds for Impeachment (see Article VI).

III. Resolutions:
(a) These polls can be started by any Citizen, including members of the governement, and must be used to propose resolutions. resolutions, if passed, modify the rules that clearly affect the course of the game or the policy of the executive branch of the government government (as defined in Article I of this Constitution).
(b) The subject line must contain the word 'RESOLUTION', written in capital letters.
(c) They have to be Yes/No polls. Multiple choice polls are not allowed as resolutions.
(d) resolutions may not violate or change the Constitution. Resolutions may change, amend or remove any existing resolutions or judicial decisions regarding resolutions.
(e) If more than 1/2 of the voters votes in favour of the resolution, at least 1/2 of all Citizens vote in the poll and the Court does not declare the poll invalid, the resolution is considered passed. All Citizens must from that time on obey it.
(f) A record must be kept of all resolutions that are passed, amended, or removed. The person who proposed a Law that has been passed must add this resolutions to the record as soon as possible.
(g) The Court will resolve all conflicts of resolutions. The Court’s ruling on an interpretation of a resolution is of the same power and authority as that resolution.

IV. Amendments:
(a) These polls can be started by any Citizen, including members of the governement, and must be used to propose Amendments to this Constitution.
(b) The subject line must contain the word 'AMENDMENT', written in capital letters.
(c) They have to be Yes/No polls. Multiple choice polls are not allowed as Ammendments.
(d) Amendments may override any existing Laws, judicial decisions regarding Laws or any number of existing sections of the Constitution.
(e) If more than 2/3 of the voters votes in favour of the Law, at least 1/2 of all Citizens vote in the poll and the Court does not declare the poll invalid, the Ammendent is considered passed. All Citizens must from that time on obey it.
(f) Amendments of the Constitution must be recorded by the Court. The person who proposed an Amendment that has been passed must inform the Court of this as soon as possible.

V. Unofficial polls:
(a) These polls can be started by any Citizen, including members of the government.
(b) They may only exist to debate or gather information. Their outcome should not affect the course of the game or the policy of the government.
(c) Unofficial polls are the only polls in which more than one option may be chosen from the list of options.
(d) They do not have to follow all the rules specified in this Article. However, rules specified in Article IV of this Constitution must still be obeyed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Summary of the changes:
Article: Bill of Rights
Section 2 - Added the statement that say that no citzen may be forced to vote
Article: Polling
Changes:
1) 2-b was breaken onto two section: 1-b and 1-d. Articl 1-c equals the old 2-f.

2) Section 2 totally removed an moved to:
2-a. Already included in the section 2 of the Bill of Rights.
2-b. Moved to the section 2 of the Bill of Rights.
2-c'. Impossible with to be inflicted with the apolyton rules
2-c'' and 2-d and 2-e. Impossible with to be inflicted with the new civgroup rules.
2-f. Moved to section 1 of the polling article.

Any new comments?

Note: I did not changed nothing about the minimum number of people to validate an amendment or resolution poll.

Last edited by Pedrunn on 06-11-2002 at 03:03

	06-11-2002 03:57									#43
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

BOR (1) You should also include anyone who joins the CtP2 democracy game group

I(a) Why does the court post the polls? why not the vp? I think the court should remain seperated from the day to day operation of the government so they can maintain an unbisased opinion. And what happens if someone questions the legality of an election poll? The court would be ruling on the legality of a poll posted by one of its own members!

I disagree with how the multiple choice polls are defined. I think that you should be able to select more than one option in polls if the minister desires it. For example, the science minister may want the citizens to vote for more than one technology, so that the minister can report a techpath to the president instead of just a single tech that the people desire.

Vote for two:
A)Monarchy
B)Republic
C)Democracy
D)Automobile
E)Space Flight
F)chivalry
G)Future Tech

The citizens may overhwhelming want to research automobile, but what should be researched next? The science minister would have to make another poll and slow the game down.



V(d) What is article four of the constitution? the amendment polling rules?

	07-11-2002 03:47									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch b: I think there we have to wait for the officials to let us know if this is possible......(closing polls upon 'our' request)

The author of that section (i.e. me) *is* an official

quote: 2. c. ????????? to clarify (at least how I understood) Each Citizen has only one vote per poll, unless it is a multiple choice poll?

Well, simply put, you can't use DLs or hack the site or otherwise abuse the system to vote more than once (as a mod, I could vote as often as I want ). But I guess Pedrunn's simplification makes sense, considering the new voting system and Apolyton's own rules.

quote: Maybe we should make a threat for each article (and afterwards a poll about it). This way we nobody could moan about 'somebody' decided for him.

Isn't that what we're doing now? (Sure, the BoR is included in this thread but that's only 5 lines of text and there already seems to be a fair degree of consensus on it).

quote: Locutus (or other officials): When will the new system be active????????????????

Unknown, but soon, I presume (and if not, I'll whine to Markos until the does activate it ).

Regarding a minimum number of votes: we're not gonna get more than 50 people to participate in this DG anytime soon and if we can't get more than 15 to vote in such a critical poll, this game is doomed anyway. So starting out with a 1/3 requirement for important decisions sounds okay to me. We can always amend it if activity starts to decrease...

quote: can only think in giving the court the power to close thread that they think repetitive. Anyones has a better idea?

I second this. It's implicitly covered in section 3.IV(g), but maybe this should be made more explicit in a seperate section?

Suggested changes to the latest update:

Polling:

1(a): remove 'or more'.

1(c): "(c) Any polls started by non-citizens will be declared Unofficial."

3.IV(e) and 3.V(e): 1/2 of all Citizens must be 1/3 of all Citizens.

3.II(d) section 7 is now section 5.


Bill of Rights:

1: Considering the future voting system, better replace the Citizen Registry with the CivGroup entirely: "Any person who has registered to participate in this Democracy Game in the CtP2 Democracy Game CivGroup is considered a Citizen. No person shall be denied the right to become a Citizen."

2: Better make that addition a new sentence: "2. No Citizen shall ever be in any poll denied the right to vote and to keep this vote private. No Citizen shall ever be forced to vote in any poll."

quote: V(d) What is article four of the constitution? the amendment polling rules?

Bill of Rights

Constitution ToC (not final):

I: Executive Branch: The Ministers
II: Judicial Branch: The Court
III: Polling
IV: Bill of Rights
V: Government Changes

As far as 'multiple select' polls go: there's no way to check for how many options people have voted, results of such polls are often rather ambiguous. In such a case one can better post 2 single-select polls: one to find out people's primary choice, one for the secondary one.

	07-11-2002 06:51									#45
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: I: Executive Branch: The Ministers II: Judicial Branch: The Court III: Polling IV: Bill of Rights V: Government Changes

Wouldnt look better if we change to:

I: Bill of Rights
II: Executive Branch: The Ministers
III: Judicial Branch: The Court
IV: Polling
V: Government Changes

After all Bill of Rights should be the first thing to be read by a citzen.

quote: 1(c): "(c) Any polls started by non-citizens will be declared Unofficial."

The Section 1-d says "The Court has the right to rule over the validity of polls. Invalid polls should be considered Unofficial and may be closed if the Court requests this." So the change is not needed.

All the others changes stated by locutus will be added to the update

quote: why not the vp?

Will we have a vp? That something to think about it. We must speed up the Executive Branch: The Ministers Article. This article is the only one moving too slowly.

I will wait a few more comments to post the new updated article.

	07-11-2002 07:31									#46
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Pedrunn Wouldnt look better if we change to: I: Bill of Rights II: Executive Branch: The Ministers III: Judicial Branch: The Court IV: Polling V: Government Changes After all Bill of Rights should be the first thing to be read by a citzen.

Well, all the other DGs seem to be putting the Executive Branch as first article, but your suggestion is fine by me as well.

quote: The Section 1-d says "The Court has the right to rule over the validity of polls. Invalid polls should be considered Unofficial and may be closed if the Court requests this." So the change is not needed.

Yes, IMHO it is. The difference is that your version requires the Court to rule upon it: it must be reviewed by the Senior Justice, it requires a 3 day hearing and a vote must take place. In such a blatantly obvious case, it would be better to determine the inevitable outcome in advance: make such polls Unofficial by default.

quote: Will we have a vp?

Exactly, odds are we won't have a VP. And since the Court is supposedly neutral, it would be best to have it deal with elections.

	07-11-2002 09:23									#47
	Suffering from ads?

ah, i didn't know we weren't planning on having a VP, so yeah, i agree that the court would be best to post polls elections then. but who posts the poll about electing judges?

and i just thought of a problem we'll run into electing judges, but i'll post that over in the government change thread

	07-11-2002 11:05									#48
	Got spare money?

PermaBans should be in effect, but they should only be used as a last resort, and if the Judges have a 2-1 vote.

	07-11-2002 11:11									#49
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

i thought you just said in the other thread there would only be two judges. oh wait, are you thinking of Locutus as a permanent judge? I don't think that would be a good idea since he'll probably want to run for a different public office eventually during the game, and that would create conflict of interest if he was both a judge and say, Minister of War

	07-11-2002 11:30									#50
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well someone should be a Perma-Judge

	07-11-2002 13:04									#51
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Some thoughts on the ministers:

1. The ministers are elected by official polls.

2.
a. Any citizen can become minister, so long he is not banned by the court. (by the way, should we allow ex-criminals :d to run for office?)
b. ' I was thinking about a maximum duration for office, but not sure if we want to do it?'

Now we have two possibilities:

3.
a There 'orders' have to be posted public (would it be possible to get a thread/forum where only our government could post?)
b.Those orders will be executed by the GA, unless anyone has a objection against it, this must be expressed by a poll within 24 hours (only a guess in the moment to keep things running).

or

3.
The minister has to collect all information before,i.e. by posting polls and changing those into possible orders, which would be needed to be approved by the citizens (again poll).

I must say, I would prefer using the first option, might be quicker.

I might come up with some more.......later.........maybe......don't know

	07-11-2002 13:56									#52
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I think ex-criminals should be banned, if the crime was election/politically intwined.

I actually believe we need a permanent govenor, who collects all data corresponding to elections, referendums, and he must approve of all bill being entered into the constitution

	07-11-2002 21:20									#53
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I don't think we should have perma-anything, perma-anything is asking for trouble. No perma-judge or perma-governor (I'm not even sure yet if I'll have time for 1 term in office, let alone be there permanently ), no perma-banning and no perma-criminals (forgive and forget - if someone's a repeat offender we'll deal with him/her repeatedly, and his/her chances of winning an election will be very slim anyway). As mod I'm close enough to being a perma-supervisor (or whatever you wish to call it), but I hope I won't have to interfere in the course of the game any more than strictly necessary. If at all possible, I just want to be a lackey of the Court and the President (topping/closing/banning when I'm asked to) when it comes to using my mod-status/power. It might be useful to have someone calling the shots if we threaten to enter a deadlock, but I think that should only happen in emergencies (using the section of the Constitution that says that the rules of Apolyton are the rules of this DG), but IMHO it shouldn't be an integral part of the game.

Gilgamensch,
2a. People who are banned from the game naturally can't run for office. If someone's banned (s)he's basically a non-Citizen, so that goes without saying.

3a. Technically we can't have threads were only government officials can post but 'socially' we can: put in big bold text in the first post of a thread who can and can't post there and delete any posts that are made 'illegally' (and punish repeat offenders if needed)

As far as Minister policy goes, I think we should go with the 2nd method you mention, except that I don't think Citizens will have to approve every literal order all the time, that would take waaayyy too much time and polling (should Warrior 13 go to location (12, 23) or (12, 24)? Should army 7 use Archer 19 or Archer 34 as reinforcement? ). Ministers can just poll to see what the general desires of the people are (sometimes this can be very general, sometimes awfully specific, depending on what the situation requires) and base their orders on that. They have to abide to all Resolutions and to Official polls (unless they announce this publically in advance), so the Citiziens have plenty of tools to influence Minister policies. And if a Minister gives orders that go against the Citizens' wishes anyway, (s)he can always be impeached. But we should at least give the Ministers *some* freedom for own thought...

Last edited by Locutus on 07-11-2002 at 21:25

	08-11-2002 01:59									#54
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Hey redbull, arent you being too hard on the ex-criminal. As i see i cant find a reason to make a permanent punishment for a citizen if not already included in the apolyton policies.
There should never be permanent punishments in DGs.

quote: Originally posted by Locutus As far as Minister policy goes, I think we should go with the 2nd method you mention, except that I don't think Citizens will have to approve every literal order all the time, that would take waaayyy too much time and polling ... But we should at least give the Ministers *some* freedom for own thought...

As i pictured the official polls are used to help a minister in a hard choice, helping him not to make big mistakes, Not to mention increase his popularity.
Still the minister doesnt have to follow the decision of an oficial poll. Again, They are there just to help him.
Check the section 2.d of this article.

quote: CTP2DG Constitution (d) The government official who started the poll may or may not follow the opinion of the majority of the voters. In case (s)he does not follow what was decided, (s)he must make this decision public. Failure to do so will be regarded withholding of information, as defined in Article IV section 7, and can serve as grounds for Impeachment (see Article VI).

But you may ask:
"So the ministers will have absolute power once in the government?
And i will respond you:
"No! Thats why there are resolution poll! To give power to the citzens to decide when something must be changed and even impeach the officer they dislike"

	08-11-2002 02:37									#55
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dp

	08-11-2002 02:37									#56
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Exactly, that's what I had in mind as well

	08-11-2002 04:23									#57
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UPDATE

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I: Bill of Rights
II: Polling
III: Government Changes
IV: Executive Branch: The Ministers
V: Judicial Branch: The Court

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Article: Bill of Rights

1. Any person who has registered to participate in this Democracy Game in the CtP2 Democracy Game CivGroup is considered a Citizen. No person shall be denied the right to become a Citizen."

2. No Citizen shall ever be in any poll denied the right to vote and to keep this vote private. No Citizen shall ever be forced to vote in any poll.

3. Freedom of speech and the right to associate into any form of organization shall not be denied unless it violates Apolyton rules.

4. No citizen may be punished in any way without the consent of the Court. Still no one shall be banned permanently from participating in the Democracy Game, excluding those who are permanently banned from Apolyton. Note that people may still be banned for any amount of time, as long as it is not permanent.

5. The government may not knowingly hide information or give false information to the people. Therefore all citizens shall have access to the saved games. However, no Citizen shall ever 'play ahead'.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Article: Polling

1. Definition and validity:

(a) All official decision making will be done through polls, in which Citizens can express their opinion on issues. A poll is the standard vBB poll feature in which people can anonymously vote for one of a list of options.
(b) Any Poll that is not Unofficial (see section 3) and that violates any of the rules specified in this Article will be declared invalid.
(c) Any polls started by non-citizens will be declared Unofficial.
(d) The Court has the right to rule over the validity of polls. Invalid polls should be considered Unofficial and may be closed if the Court requests this.

2. Poll Organization:

(a) The first post of all polls must contain the following elements:
* A clear and unbiased explanation of the question and the answers, if needed;
* Expiration date, if applicable;
* Links to related threads or other information sources, if any;
* Type (see section 4) and nature of the poll: information gathering or decision making.
(b) Two types of poll organization are allowed: Yes/No polls and multiple choice polls.
(c) Yes/No polls must have three options of which only one can be chosen. The three options must be:
* Yes, meaning that the voter agrees with what was stated in the poll;
* No, meaning that the voter does not agree with what was stated in the poll;
* Abstain, meaning that the voter does not have a specific opinion on what was stated in the poll or does not wish to express it. Abstain votes may not be considered to say anything about what was stated in the poll.
(d) Alternative terms for 'Yes' and 'No' may be used in a Yes/No poll, as long as their meaning is along the same lines as 'Yes' and 'No' (examples: 'I agree'/'I don't agree' or 'In favour'/'Against'). Terms are along the same lines as 'Yes' and 'No' when the question in the poll can be rephrased so that it can be answered with 'Yes' or 'No'.
(e) Multiple choice polls must have at least three options of which only one can be chosen. Such polls must at least have an Abstain option as defined in section 3(c). All other options are open for the poll creator to fill in as he wishes, as long as they are clear and unbiased.

3. Poll Types:

There are 5 types of polls: Election polls, Official polls, Resolutions, Amendments and Unofficial polls.

I. Election polls:
(a) These polls must be started by the Court. They serve to elect the persons who will fulfill the official positions of the executive and judicial branches of the government, as defined in Article IV and Article V of this Constitution.
(b) The subject line must contain the word 'ELECTION', written in capital letters, and the name of the office for which the election is held.
(c) They have to be multiple choice polls with only the names of the candidates as options. They can only be decision-making polls, they cannot be used for not information gathering.
(e) They must follow the rules as defined in Article III of this Constitution.

II. Official polls:
(a) These polls must be started by members of the executive branch of the government, as defined in Article IV and article V of this Constitution, and relate to the game.
(b) The subject line must contain the word 'OFFICIAL', written in capital letters.
(c) They can be either Yes/No or multiple choice polls and can be used for either information gathering or decision making.
(d) The government official who started the poll may or may not follow the opinion of the majority of the voters. In case (s)he does not follow what was decided, (s)he must make this decision public. Failure to do so will be regarded withholding of information, as defined in Article I section 5, and can serve as grounds for Impeachment (see Article V).

III. Resolutions:
(a) These polls can be started by any Citizen, including members of the governement, and must be used to propose resolutions. resolutions, if passed, modify the rules that clearly affect the course of the game or the policy of the executive branch of the government government (as defined in Article IV of this Constitution).
(b) The subject line must contain the word 'RESOLUTION', written in capital letters.
(c) They have to be Yes/No polls. Multiple choice polls are not allowed as resolutions.
(d) resolutions may not violate or change the Constitution. Resolutions may change, amend or remove any existing resolutions or judicial decisions regarding resolutions.
(e) If more than 1/2 of the voters votes in favour of the resolution, at least 1/3 of all Citizens vote in the poll and the Court does not declare the poll invalid, the resolution is considered passed. All Citizens must from that time on obey it.
(f) A record must be kept of all resolutions that are passed, amended, or removed. The person who proposed a Law that has been passed must add this resolutions to the record as soon as possible.
(g) The Court will resolve all conflicts of resolutions. The Court’s ruling on an interpretation of a resolution is of the same power and authority as that resolution.

IV. Amendments:
(a) These polls can be started by any Citizen, including members of the governement, and must be used to propose Amendments to this Constitution.
(b) The subject line must contain the word 'AMENDMENT', written in capital letters.
(c) They have to be Yes/No polls. Multiple choice polls are not allowed as Ammendments.
(d) Amendments may override any existing Laws, judicial decisions regarding Laws or any number of existing sections of the Constitution.
(e) If more than 2/3 of the voters votes in favour of the Law, at least 1/3 of all Citizens vote in the poll and the Court does not declare the poll invalid, the Ammendent is considered passed. All Citizens must from that time on obey it.
(f) Amendments of the Constitution must be recorded by the Court. The person who proposed an Amendment that has been passed must inform the Court of this as soon as possible.

V. Unofficial polls:
(a) These polls can be started by any Citizen, including members of the government.
(b) They may only exist to debate or gather information. Their outcome should not affect the course of the game or the policy of the government.
(c) Unofficial polls are the only polls in which more than one option may be chosen from the list of options.
(d) They do not have to follow all the rules specified in this Article. However, rules specified in Article I of this Constitution must still be obeyed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Articles Positions

- The Bill of Rights is the first article and the governement positions are the last article. I think this makes more sense.

Bill of Rights
-1: Considering the future voting system, the Citizen Registry replaced by CivGroup entirely:
-2: Phrase order change

Polling

-1(a): remove 'or more'.
-1(c): "(c) Any polls started by non-citizens will be declared Unofficial."
-3.IV(e) and 3.V(e): 1/2 of all Citizens must be 1/3 of all Citizens.
- All aticle and sections mentioned changed accordingly to the the new construction of the constitution

	08-11-2002 12:32									#58
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IV Executive branch: the Ministers


1. Any citizen can run for a minister position

2. Term:
a. The minister will be elected after the 'leader' ? (same time....)
b. The length of his term will be 50 turns? (or real time like 1 month)
c. The minister has the right to select a delegate, which will act on his behalve, during absence. In case that the minister-position will become vacant, the president has also the right to select a delegate.
c1. No one can be forced to be a delegate.
c2. This delegate-position does not count as a term for office-run.
c3. The court can open a poll to replace a delegate, prior to the new election date.
d. There will be no limit to the number of terms a citizen can run for one office.

3. orders
a. The minister will have to post his decision in public, prior to execution. Those threats shall not be touched by any citizen.
question: Must the 'leader' execute the orders?
b. Those orders will be executed by the 'leader' (VOTE in the poll)
c. Those orders are based on the information/polls collect prior to posting the polls.
d. (as idea) Any order can be revised by the Court, after a citizen opened a trail...... What you think?

	08-11-2002 15:23									#59
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Gilgamensch,
Let's keep that in a seperate thread, shall we? 2 Articles in 1 thread is already pushing it... And IMHO we'll first need to agree on the which minister positions we'll have before making rules like that...

	08-11-2002 15:41									#60
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Locutus,

I kind of agree, it was just that Pedrunn's BoR ..... contained in the header part IV, so I thought let's throw my thought's in to get something started (don't want to blame him.......)

Talking about this, I recognised that we have three threads kind of handling the same stuff.......... Time to restart????????

And for the minister positions: I didn't mentioned anything about the # of jobs