08-11-2002 16:12									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch I kind of agree, it was just that Pedrunn's BoR ..... contained in the header part IV, so I thought let's throw my thought's in to get something started (don't want to blame him.......)

Don't blame Pedrunn, blame me I insisted on keeping the BoR here once Pedrunn had brought it up. No use polluting the forums with a thread dedicated to 5 lines of Constitution text (that are fairly intertwined with Polling anyway)...

quote: Talking about this, I recognised that we have three threads kind of handling the same stuff.......... Time to restart????????

Which three are those? We have 5 topped threads on different parts of the Constitution, but he can hardly lump all those together at this point, while almost every line is still undergoing fierce debate?

quote: And for the minister positions: I didn't mentioned anything about the # of jobs

True, but the article on ministers will be a 2-parter: part 1 will deal with what ministers there are and what responsibilities they have while part 2 will deal with additional issues like chain of command, orders, etc (whatever is needed - hopefully we can keep it simple). IMHO part 1 should first be dealt with (at least in large outlines) before we look into part 2 in too much detail. Together with timing issues, that article is the last part of the constitution we still have to write, once that's done we can start the game. However, I for one don't have the time to discuss 5 constitution articles at once so I myself will wait until one or several other constitution articles are more or less finalized before giving any further thoughts on that subject. Feel free to start discussions on the issue yourself if you want (in the 'Government positions' or a new thread), but don't count on my feedback, at least no yet...

	14-11-2002 09:15									#62
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the BOR hasn't been changed or challenged in more than a week, i think that it could be voted upon on whether it is good or not by the people right now. only i think that either locutus or pedrunn, the two major drafters of the consitution should do the poll. (I say pedrunn and locutus because they've done the most work on the entire connie IMO)

likewise, i'm hoping to see an updated article about polling soon

	14-11-2002 14:34									#63
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Yes, I agree with you H Tower.

the poll could have the option's (as in Pedrunn's one) Yes/No/abstain, meaning No, something has to be changed.

Otherwise we have an official part of connie

	14-11-2002 15:50									#64
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Well, changes in one part of the Constitution can prompt changes in other parts, so personally I think we should poll all articles at the same time (but still 1 poll per article).

	14-11-2002 16:39									#65
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Seconding Locutus

	14-11-2002 17:03									#66
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Locutus (and Pedrunn),

it is a bit contradictary what you are saying.

You are that changes in one part might make changes in the other, but still saying let's vote for all of them one-by-one?

So it would still mean, changes to be made.

But with the court active (I know different threat, but overlapping) they could help us decide it a bit more..........

	14-11-2002 17:13									#67
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Yes, I agree that in theory that could create problems. But if changes in one article (that are necessary to get the article passed) really cause contradictions in other articles that have already been passed, we'll have to look at those changes very critically and see if it's possible to re-submit the passed articles (including necessary changes) for voting. However, we should aim to make the vote for the Constitution more than a formal one. If we throw the whole document together, most people will probably think 'whatever...' and agree with it regardless of it's contents. If it's cut in smaller pieces it might be easier to digest and vote properly...

(But I'm kind of hoping we're listening sufficiently to people's feedback now and using it in writing the Constitution, thus creating a lot of support for it already)

	14-11-2002 17:16									#68
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I will try to show you an example.

We have the Poll Scheme and the Government changes articles.
Consider we vote for the poll scheme to be accepted but we are still working in the Government Changes.
Lets say we make a important change in this aticle that will reflect in the Poll Scheme in such a way that we will have to change it.
But how can we change it if we have already voted for it.

I hope you got what i mean

	14-11-2002 17:27									#69
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I know exactly what you mean. (both of you)

I said somewhere else, that I would like to have seen far more polls on the connie, avoiding the 'whatever' kind of poll.

It's just like with the court in place, we would have somebody as a first barrier, shielding of 'stupid' requests.........

If changes needs to be made, it could be done by the court and passed by us. Only as a thought..........

	14-11-2002 17:36									#70
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The problems with too many polls is that it will take forever to get a full Constitution to pass and get this game to start. As much as I would like to poll not every article but every section (and even the subsections if needed), I think that would take too much time. We can change individual sections once the game has started IMHO, even though I'd rather do that in advance...

	14-11-2002 22:19									#71
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I'm ok with posting just one poll, based on locutus' reasoning. It was a bit late last night when I started bumping threads to get people to start posting again

	15-11-2002 12:16									#72
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As Locutus pointed and as we are experiencing in the moment, we sometimes can't agree on simple things...........

	16-11-2002 18:12									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Pedrunn IV. Amendments: (...) (e) If more than 2/3 of the voters votes in favour of the Law, at least 1/3 of all Citizens vote in the poll and the Court does not declare the poll invalid, the Ammendent is considered passed. All Citizens must from that time on obey it.

Why 2/3 and not 1/2?

I think the majority of the community is fine, dont you?

	16-11-2002 23:41									#74
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i think 50% is good for making amendments. I also still think that the 50% of the population needed to vote should be taken away, the length of the poll should be long enough to allow all citizens to vote if they wish too.

another idea i've been thinking about after looking in the thread about when people come around is that polls need to be at least 4 days long, OR no three day poll may be made on a thursday, friday or saturday. This would give everyone two days to vote, even if they are not around on the weekend.

(I included thursday because some people's thursdays are really people's fridays)

	18-11-2002 12:37									#75
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I thought we 'agreed' on 50% of the votes with 1/3 of the # of citizens? Which I still back up.........

Having no minimum of voters in, might make it possible to pass something, which really no-one supports........

Although, could be changed afterwards, but that I think would create too much problems.

As pointed out somewhere else, we'll never have 2/3 agreeing on anything laterone


That was what I was thinking off, and looks like most people are here anyway during the weekdays........

	20-11-2002 01:00									#76
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So 50% it is?

	20-11-2002 03:17									#77
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yes

	20-11-2002 15:11									#78
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Article: Bill of Rights

1. Any person who has registered to participate in this Democracy Game in the CtP2 Democracy Game CivGroup is considered a Citizen. No person shall be denied the right to become a Citizen."

2. No Citizen shall ever be in any poll denied the right to vote and to keep this vote private. No Citizen shall ever be forced to vote in any poll.

3. Freedom of speech and the right to associate into any form of organization shall not be denied unless it violates Apolyton rules.

4. No citizen may be punished in any way without the consent of the Court. Still no one shall be banned permanently from participating in the Democracy Game, excluding those who are permanently banned from Apolyton. Note that people may still be banned for any amount of time, as long as it is not permanent.

5. The government may not knowingly hide information or give false information to the people. Therefore all citizens shall have access to the saved games. However, no Citizen shall ever 'play ahead'.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Article: Polling

1. Definition and validity:

(a) All official decision making will be done through polls, in which Citizens can express their opinion on issues. A poll is the standard vBB poll feature in which people can anonymously vote for one of a list of options.
(b) Any Poll that is not Unofficial (see section 3) and that violates any of the rules specified in this Article will be declared invalid.
(c) Any polls started by non-citizens will be declared Unofficial.
(d) The Court has the right to rule over the validity of polls. Invalid polls should be considered Unofficial and may be closed if the Court requests this.

2. Poll Organization:

(a) The first post of all polls must contain the following elements:
* A clear and unbiased explanation of the question and the answers, if needed;
* Expiration date, if applicable;
* Links to related threads or other information sources, if any;
* Type (see section 4) and nature of the poll: information gathering or decision making.
(b) Two types of poll organization are allowed: Yes/No polls and multiple choice polls.
(c) Yes/No polls must have three options of which only one can be chosen. The three options must be:
* Yes, meaning that the voter agrees with what was stated in the poll;
* No, meaning that the voter does not agree with what was stated in the poll;
* Abstain, meaning that the voter does not have a specific opinion on what was stated in the poll or does not wish to express it. Abstain votes may not be considered to say anything about what was stated in the poll.
(d) Alternative terms for 'Yes' and 'No' may be used in a Yes/No poll, as long as their meaning is along the same lines as 'Yes' and 'No' (examples: 'I agree'/'I don't agree' or 'In favour'/'Against'). Terms are along the same lines as 'Yes' and 'No' when the question in the poll can be rephrased so that it can be answered with 'Yes' or 'No'.
(e) Multiple choice polls must have at least three options of which only one can be chosen. Such polls must at least have an Abstain option as defined in section 3(c). All other options are open for the poll creator to fill in as he wishes, as long as they are clear and unbiased.

3. Poll Types:

There are 5 types of polls: Election polls, Official polls, Resolutions, Amendments and Unofficial polls.

I. Election polls:
(a) These polls must be started by the Court. They serve to elect the persons who will fulfill the official positions of the executive and judicial branches of the government, as defined in Article IV and Article V of this Constitution.
(b) The subject line must contain the word 'ELECTION', written in capital letters, and the name of the office for which the election is held.
(c) They have to be multiple choice polls with only the names of the candidates as options. They can only be decision-making polls, they cannot be used for not information gathering.
(e) They must follow the rules as defined in Article III of this Constitution.

II. Official polls:
(a) These polls must be started by members of the executive branch of the government, as defined in Article IV and article V of this Constitution, and relate to the game.
(b) The subject line must contain the word 'OFFICIAL', written in capital letters.
(c) They can be either Yes/No or multiple choice polls and can be used for either information gathering or decision making.
(d) The government official who started the poll may or may not follow the opinion of the majority of the voters. In case (s)he does not follow what was decided, (s)he must make this decision public. Failure to do so will be regarded withholding of information, as defined in Article I section 5, and can serve as grounds for Impeachment (see Article V).

III. Resolutions:
(a) These polls can be started by any Citizen, including members of the governement, and must be used to propose resolutions. resolutions, if passed, modify the rules that clearly affect the course of the game or the policy of the executive branch of the government government (as defined in Article IV of this Constitution). Except in case of impeachments which shall be decide according to Chapter 2 of Article 3.
(b) The subject line must contain the word 'RESOLUTION', written in capital letters.
(c) They have to be Yes/No polls. Multiple choice polls are not allowed as resolutions.
(d) resolutions may not violate or change the Constitution. Resolutions may change, amend or remove any existing resolutions or judicial decisions regarding resolutions.
(e) If more than 1/2 of the voters votes in favour of the resolution, at least 1/3 of all Citizens vote in the poll and the Court does not declare the poll invalid, the resolution is considered passed. All Citizens must from that time on obey it.
(f) Resolutions of the Constitution must be recorded by the Court. The person who proposed the Resolution that has been passed must inform the Court of this as soon as possible.
(g) The Court will resolve all conflicts of resolutions. The Court’s ruling on an interpretation of a resolution is of the same power and authority as that resolution.

IV. Amendments:
(a) These polls can be started by any Citizen, including members of the governement, and must be used to propose Amendments to this Constitution.
(b) The subject line must contain the word 'AMENDMENT', written in capital letters.
(c) They have to be Yes/No polls. Multiple choice polls are not allowed as Ammendments.
(d) Amendments may change/append/override any existing Laws, judicial decisions regarding Laws or any number of existing sections of the Constitution.
(e) If more than 1/2 of the voters votes in favour of the Law, at least 1/3 of all Citizens vote in the poll and the Court does not declare the poll invalid, the Ammendent is considered passed. All Citizens must from that time on obey it.
(f) Amendments of the Constitution must be recorded by the Court. The person who proposed an Amendment that has been passed must inform the Court of this as soon as possible.

V. Unofficial polls:
(a) These polls can be started by any Citizen, including members of the government.
(b) They may only exist to debate or gather information. Their outcome should not affect the course of the game or the policy of the government.
(c) Unofficial polls are the only polls in which more than one option may be chosen from the list of options.
(d) They do not have to follow all the rules specified in this Article. However, rules specified in Article I of this Constitution must still be obeyed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Polling

Chapter 3, section IV-e - The number of votes needed to pass an amendment is 50% of the community and not 66% of it.

(EDIT)
Chapter 3, section III-a - Expressed that impeachments cant be decided by Resolution polls.

Chapter 3, section IV-d - Small change to explain the all use of amendments.

Last edited by Pedrunn on 20-11-2002 at 22:17

	20-11-2002 15:40									#79
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Pedrunn,

some comments: (as usual)

III.
f. Is it not in the hands of the court to keep the connie/resolutions up-to-date?

little grammer at least from my side:

(e) If more than 1/2 of the voters votes in favour of the Law and at least 1/3 of all Citizens voted in the poll and the Court does not declare the poll invalid, the Ammendent is considered passed. All Citizens must from that time on obey it

The rest I think I can live with

But I'll re-read it.

	20-11-2002 15:56									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch Pedrunn, some comments: (as usual) [quote] III. f. Is it not in the hands of the court to keep the connie/resolutions up-to-date?

Resolutions dont change the constitution but still they should be recorded by the court and not by the people. So suggestion is added.

quote: (e) If more than 1/2 of the voters votes in favour of the Law and at least 1/3 of all Citizens voted in the poll and the Court does not declare the poll invalid, the Ammendent is considered passed. All Citizens must from that time on obey it

I have to go now but i will change this later.

BTW- I edited the article

	20-11-2002 17:18									#81
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Pedrunn,

another little change:

IV:
(d) Amendments may change/append/override any existing Laws, judicial decisions regarding Laws or any number of existing sections of the Constitution.

Another little thing, I just noticed:

You say:
3.II
(d) The government official who started the poll may or may not follow the opinion of the majority of the voters. In case (s)he does not follow what was decided, (s)he must make this decision public. Failure to do so will be regarded withholding of information, as defined in Article I section 5, and can serve as grounds for Impeachment (see Article V).

But this is in the BoR, which in, your case, has no number

So maybe better to replace with:
..... in Bill of Rights, section 5, ........

	20-11-2002 22:11									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch (e) If more than 1/2 of the voters votes in favour of the Law and at least 1/3 of all Citizens voted in the poll and the Court does not declare the poll invalid, the Ammendent is considered passed. All Citizens must from that time on obey it

Why change. The other way is correct. The extra "and" wont change the idea and wont make it more correct.

quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch IV: (d) Amendments may change/append/override any existing Laws, judicial decisions regarding Laws or any number of existing sections of the Constitution.

Looks ok. I will change that part.

quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch 3.II But this is in the BoR, which in, your case, has no number So maybe better to replace with: ..... in Bill of Rights, section 5, ........

This is the final. It hasnt been changed:

I: Bill of Rights
II: Polling
III: Government Changes
IV: Executive Branch: The Ministers
V: Judicial Branch: The Court

	20-11-2002 22:40									#83
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I thought it was:

I: Bill of Rights
II: Executive Branch: The Ministers
III: Judicial Branch: The Court
IV: Polling
V: Government Changes



It makes more sense to first explain what the government is and then how it can be changed, not the other way around

	20-11-2002 23:55									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus I thought it was: I: Bill of Rights II: Executive Branch: The Ministers III: Judicial Branch: The Court IV: Polling V: Government Changes

I proposed the other way. But it really doesnt matter to me.

	21-11-2002 00:01									#85
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SUGESTION:

The amendment and the resolution type of poll looks exacly the same in the way they are handled.

What you guys think abou merge them?

Something like a "Law" (or whatever) in which it will include the functions of both polls together (amend/change laws to the constitution and change/make the decisions of the executive power)?

	21-11-2002 01:07									#86
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i think we should combine the two. a sperate article, article VI would have to be drafted if we ever make an amendment or resolution, but that's no big deal

	21-11-2002 02:36									#87
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No, I think a resolution should only have to last 3 days and an amendment at least 5 (maybe even 7). For this reason the two should remain seperate.

There's also a large conceptual difference between resolutions and amendments. As a (software) designer, I must insist that conceptually different objects are treated seperately, even if they are structurally similar.

Edit: on that note, we're yet to decide on the length of polls. I propose 3 days for Official polls and Resolutions, and 5 for Elections and Amendments (nothing needs to be specified for Unofficial polls of course).

Last edited by Locutus on 21-11-2002 at 02:44

	21-11-2002 04:54									#88
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ooh, i hadn't thought about that. elections last 5 days right? i think that the amendment polls should be that long too, a week is too long, most people will vote in the first three days and then the stragglers will vote in the next 2 days, and nothing will happen to the vote for the last two days

	21-11-2002 04:58									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus I thought it was: I: Bill of Rights II: Executive Branch: The Ministers III: Judicial Branch: The Court IV: Polling V: Government Changes It makes more sense to first explain what the government is and then how it can be changed, not the other way around

we need to lock an order down one way or the other so that when articles refer to each other, they are talking about the correct article

	21-11-2002 08:21									#90
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If we merge the two it will be easier to the citzens to use. You could just say: If you want omething to happen just write the word 'LAW' at the begining of the thread if it is just a discussion you dont.
No need to further explanation. After all they are not that diferent. Both are the people expressing their opinion and make that opinion, if a good one, becoming true.

But having two can be good too specially because of the poll time issue.
Still i believe things will be much simpler if we combine them.