26-10-2002 19:59									#1
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Here's a good topic for discussion as I draw closer to putting the wraps on the New and Improved Diplomacy and Espionage models:

Where spies are concerned (and by extension, all non-combat units in this version of the game), would you rather see spies as in-game units, represented on the map that you have to move around in order to get them into position for use, or would you rather see an abstracted system for handling these units.

I've got cool ideas for both, and currently have left it open-ended enough that I can go either way with it, so I thought I'd shop around for some ideas here before putting it into something resembling final form.

There are only two kinds of non-com units in this version of the game. Heralds (read: Diplomat) and spies (read: spies).

If we opt for making them units, that's cool, but it DOES change their functionality and role. It also, in some respects, makes them harder to utilize. The upshot here is that there's active player engagement with each use.

If we opt for abstraction, what I had in mind is an espionage window that would put you in the role of the spy master. You've got x spies, you've got your spy network that has (variable) experience with certain types of missions, and win-loss ratios vs. other factional spy networks. Also engaging, but in a different way.

So....just polling for opinions before applying the final coat of paint....

-=Vel=-

	26-10-2002 20:34									#2
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abstract all the way

In fact, do away with all units, and make it completely abstract

serious: I prefer these things to be abstract, less micromanagement( for moving the unit, aswell for trying to spot it.)

	26-10-2002 22:09									#3
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I'd prefer abstraction too. I can see a few advantages to having them as units, but I think that in the end I would prefer the lack of micromanagement.

	26-10-2002 22:53									#4
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Abstract it already. Any MM you can avoid, you should.

	27-10-2002 04:26									#5
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Abstract. Spies aren't military units, and we can avoid unecessary MM as well as conflicts between military and espionage units.

	27-10-2002 04:59									#6
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I think both ways there merits. Units help the "connect" to the game world better, and are slightly more intuitive for the novice.

However, an abstract spy screen reduces micromanagement and consolidates all the info in a same place which helps the player see that "big picture".

All things considered, I think I have to vote for a spy screen instead of units. I don't like uneccessary micromanagament. We also do not want to clutter up the map with too many units. In the late game, you could have your provinces cluttered up military, spy and diplomatic units. It would be a mess.

So, I vote for abstraction.

	27-10-2002 08:50									#7
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abstraction is way better for almost everything! i really think the way spies operate they should be abstract or have a whole different operating system(read: you shouldn't put them on the same map as say armies). the way civ does spies i never understood. spies are on a whole different level than practically every other unit and thus require whole different rules, and the environment that comes with it.

	27-10-2002 10:31									#8
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Will no one defend the unit concept?? Then I shall!

First of all, spies and diplomats ARE (I repeat ARE) military units. Granted, they don't serve the exact same function as soldiers and whatnot, but they are at the same level in my book, that is a means to an end. Also, abstraction in this arena ends up who has the most gold and whatnot to flip the bill, while including units will add the dimensions of when and where. Plus, with units, an espionage screen and spy network displays would still be needed to reduce MM and to execute orders.

Also, as said before, better connection to the game world is a bonus you just don't get with abstraction. Plus, I've had my fill of abstract this and that concerning this area, while a good units system (which would NOT resemble civ 2) would be in order.

DOWN WITH THE BOERGOISE IDEALS OF ABSTRACTION!!!!

Sorry, Fall Break is getting to me.

	27-10-2002 11:01									#9
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Abstraction doesn't necessitate a Civ3 style of "gold and luck" espionage. The question of abstraction or unit espionage/diplo is really not a question of "dimensions." Each system could be used to outstanding effect, or it could be screwed up royally. Don't think that abstraction means anything close to Civ3 abstraction... the question of abstraction really is more of a game preference and interface question; we can achieve many dimensions with both.

	28-10-2002 06:02									#10
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Cyclotron,

Actually I agree with you, I just needed to make the middle path sound more plausible with something to counter the other extreme.

I don't see why we can't make something that is actually both. Like, have the abstraction, but that shows the spies doin' there thing on the board (which would give you quick access if you want to change or check up on the spy in a given region).

Does that make sense?

	28-10-2002 06:19									#11
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Well... I would vote for abstraction as well, but there is a middle way: having a window that has all espionage options, but having each spy depicted there as a single unit. So no moving of units (I didn't like that in Civ, Civ2 and SMAC), but still have some feel with your individual spies. Plus, it keeps most of the benefits of units: each of those could have specific qualities, each of those spies could have a regular/veteran status, each unit could have been inflitrated with a certain faction or province. So no vote of me yet

DeepO

	28-10-2002 06:27									#12
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I think I see. I like espionage better abstracted, but you could use units when planting your spy, like this:

Steps for successful espionage:

1) Plant your spy in the provincial capital. Sounds easy, don't it? Well, there are a variety of ways to do this: Trade, Military, Diplomatic, and Infiltration.

- Trade: Your spy masquerades as a merchant or mercahnt's guard of one of your caravans to the target province. You train a spy unit, and he stacks with your caravans (abstracted or unit, whatever). When the caravan reaches the capital, your spy can be planted. This method of planting agents is easy and pretty foolproof, but you can only use it on provinces you have a trade route to and your agent won't be planted at a very high level of society... thus, he will be able to survey the land, spy on troops, etc., but higher level functions may be restricted to him.
- Military: Your military has the option of plundering a provincial capital it can take but cannot keep (I just made that up). If this is done, and a spy unit is stacked with your units, your spy is sucessfully planted anywhere you care to plant him. Your planted spy could be playing as a backcountry noble that fled to the capital to escape your troops, etc. The advantage is that your spy will have access to all functions because of his high position; the downside is that the spy has a higher likelyhood of being subsequently captured after missions or being ferreted out. Oh, and the fact that your military plants him means that you can't use this on anybody you aren't at war with.
- Diplomatic: Your spy pulls strings, sends bribes, and generally cons his way into high society with the help of another one of your agents. This method costs much more and can only be used when the target province has a bordering province with one of your spies planted in a high position there, but it has a low chance of failure and does not require your spy unit to move into enemy territory (he simply goes there with a letter of introduction from his rich noble uncle, or something like that, who is actually your other neighboring spy).
- Infiltration: Screw subterfuge. Your spy sneaks over the border by himself and makes his way across enemy territory into their provincial capital. On the plus side, you can do this to any province, it costs very little, and it's not likely to fail (assuming he actually makes it there), but you have to get the spy unit there without anybody seeing it and the spy won't be in high enough circles to use his more high-level powers.

And so on, while abstraction is used to actually handle his functions after he is planted.

	28-10-2002 23:36									#13
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Sorry, things that suck always get my vote

Also prefer less MM

	29-10-2002 00:38									#14
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Abstracted.

It will be easier to implement and use lots of cool stuff(like the networks you mentioned) this way.

	29-10-2002 02:50									#15
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MOO 2 had an interesting espionage window: One made spies like units, but then one used them from a window, where one could assign them location (to a alien world, or at home for security and counterespionage). thier chance on succcess is based on preset percentages determined by type of species, tech, and government type. Probability of success basically boiled down to how many spies you had against them vs how many spies they had working on counterespionage, with the percetages factored in,

You might want to check that system out.

	29-10-2002 05:36									#16
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CTP also let you build caravans as units, but then you used them in an abstracted way to create trade routes.

	29-10-2002 14:24									#17
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GePap... great comments! For some reason, I never found time to buy MoO 2, but this is certainly a reason to go hunting again... or maybe it wil be like that in MoO 3. That's exactly what I meant in my post

DeepO

	06-11-2002 11:58									#18
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i've got to vote for abstraction.

	11-11-2002 08:15									#19
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micromanagement gets a bad rap. Moving a zillion units ala Civ3 without resonable management tools is work not fun. But moving is part of the essence of gameplay. Use units but make movement pointed and fun and create useful tools for managing units.

	12-11-2002 04:57									#20
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I was rather fond of the way IG2 implemented spies. Basically they were individuals of different races with various characteristics defing their specialties. Mission profiles were selected from a list and the success of the mission itself was determined statistically for a variable duration depending upon the task.
Hence it was basically a statistical model but with enough of an individual character to the whole deal.

This sort of system of course would have to depend on the particular mission profiles available. For instance - Is there actually going to be any semblance of specfor operations on a tactical battlefield level?
Such missions would probably be far better represented by a full unit model - ie: forces have to be in place on a tactical basis to be used thusly, rather than a player having the luxury of throwing a full-fledged black op against anybody anywhere anytime from a strategic perspective.

	12-11-2002 07:39									#21
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I guess my main problem with using units for spy functions, as opposed to just planting them or something, is not so much the MM as the mental gap between military and spy units. I, at least, expect units of everything to be pretty much similar in certain, basic aspects.

For example, a unit takes up space. A unit exerts control over a tile by being present in it, which means the unit is large enough to exert exclusive control over the tile. Even a caravan is a large group, so it fits in with the idea of units. A spy, on the other hand, is one person. It's hard to make the logical jump that one person exerts control over this entire tile, which is inferred by the unit idea. In my mind's eye, one person should not have power such that it controls an equal area to a military unit, and excludes other units from that miles-wide tile unless a military action is done.

For example, if I am at peace with somebody, theoretically with spies a la Civ2 I could make a wall of them and stop any units from passing. I could just use a few to block key roads in my empire so nobody else could use them. Could one person really block a road? Could a concentration of spies of about 1 per few square miles wall off a province from enemy units? The answer, obviously, is no.

So, MM or not, I don't see units as a viable alternative.

While we are on the subject, I don't see MM as bad, just unnecessary MM (as I said in a previous post). MM that is useful, like moving military units, is good MM. I wouldn't want to abstract battle.

	12-11-2002 18:19									#22
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Cyclo, so far in the alpha builds no unit can take a full tile: you either control the province a unit is in (and this this one unit can be an army, or several armies), or you don't control the province, at which time entering it with a unit declares a war. Spies would be different in that they don't declare war, but never will we have Civ 2 spies that can block access... that's just silly. If they would become units, they need to be able to stand in the same tile as other units, whether they are friendly or not.

But the more I think on it, the more I'd like the abstracted option too. MM is fun if it brings something, but I don't see many possibilities for extras through MM...

DeepO

	12-12-2002 05:31									#23
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How about abstract it into an espionage screen, but give the spies a physical location. This way you could more accurately simulate them being caught be patrols, what areas they can spy on, etc. Also, your spies might be freed if they've been captured and you take the territory in which they are.