27-10-2002 23:45									#31
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick As for Israel, yes, this is the number one problem in the entire world and something needs to be done. But you must realize that Israel has been attacked multiple times by multiple Arab countries and many important people in the neighboring countries have never repudiated their position that Israel must be pushed into the sea.

I strongly suggest that you read at least ONE history book before making ridiculous statements like the above.

And about Iraq: I would like to point out that the US and ALL its allies supported Iraq is all sorts of ways during its most horrible war with Iran.
This war was started by Saddam, one of the US' most beloved allies!

The Western world has hardly ever supported democratic reform in the Muslim world. On the contrary, most disagreeable Muslim elites are propped up by continuous Western support. Movements for democratic reform have been betrayed on several occasions.

Just one example: Saddam Husayn

"It appeared to Husayn that the Iranian government was endeavoring to destabilize his regime by aiding the Kurdish rebellion, encouraging a Shi‘a uprising, and denouncing the legitimacy of Ba‘thist rule. He resolved to topple Khomeini's government before it could fully consolidate its power. In this decision Husayn had the support of the oil-rich monarchs of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and the smaller Gulf states for whom Khomeini's brand of populist, revolutionary Islam was anathema; he also had the support of the United States.

Throughout the Iran-Iraq War (1980-1988), the Soviet Union was Iraq's major arms supplier. But Western powers also came to Baghdad's aid. France, which was deeply involved in several large development projects in Iraq, provided Husayn's forces with Mirage jets and Super-Etendard war planes equipped with Exocet missiles. In 1984 diplomatic relations between Washington and Baghdad, severed in 1967, were restored, and the United States started to provide Iraq with military intelligence. The United States also pressured its allies not to sell weapons to Iran and, in the final year of the war, campaigned for an embargo against Iranian oil. When Iran stepped up its attacks on Kuwaiti shipping in 1987, the United States allowed Kuwait's vessels to fly the U.S. flag, thus making an attack on them equivalent to an attack on a U.S. ship. Washington also reinforced its naval presence in the Gulf, and on several occasions in 1987 and 1988, U.S. gunboats engaged in direct military actions against Iran.

Although the U.S. government and media directed nearly hysterical criticism toward Saddam Husayn and his regime during the 1990-1991 crisis, we should recall how crucial U.S. assistance to Iraq was during the earlier war. For the United States in the 1980s, the demon of the Middle East was Ayatollah Khomeini, not Saddam Husayn, and Washington was willing to ignore the brutality of Husayn's regime in order to prevent the spread of the kind of Islamic radicalism and anti-U.S. sentiment represented by Khomeini. What was at stake for the United States in this war, as perhaps in that of 1991, was not human rights but oil reserves."
(source: W.L.Cleveland : "A History of the Modern Middle East",1994)

During the '80s I was constantly disappointed by the lack of media attention for this conflict, one of the longest and most bloody wars of the century.
At the time Iraq was already deveoping weapons of mass destruction, with active support by the Soviet Union and the West.
Perhaps you remember that nuclear reactor bombed by the Israelis?

	27-10-2002 23:46									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Anyway, I have not heard any solutions coming from the "peace at any cost crowd".

Excuse me. But I do not belong to the "peace at any cost crowd." I belong to the "No war without justification" crowd.

quote: If America is the supreme evil in the world what should we do-- raise 250 million white flags and beg for forgiveness so we won't be attacked again?

Our situation would be much simpler if the "war at any cost" crowd had never had their voices heard above all others. But that has not been the case for years and years. Things are a mess and they are that way because we haven't followed the advice of George Washington, in his farewell address when he said that we should not ally or distance ourselves from any country, but that we should "Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all." Or James Madison, speaking about wars in Europe, when he said, "It is only when our rights are invaded or seriously menaced that we resent injuries or make preparation for our defense."

We should end our alliance with Israel because it's not in our best interest and holds no advantages for us. We should bring back our troops from around the world and set about making the defense of this country the military's objective. We should not attack unless attacked.

And sorry, Iraq never attacked us. Unless someone can give some actual proof, not that Iraq poses a "threat," or that Saddam Hussein is a dictator, but that an attack by Iraq on the United States is imminent we have no business making war against them.

	27-10-2002 23:48									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln I am not grasping. The analogy is fitting. We experienced an unprovoked attack. What should we do now?

I'm sorry, they're nowhere near the same. Japan attacked us. We attacked Japan.

Iraq never attacked us.

	27-10-2002 23:53									#34
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A combination of ignorance of us at least as bad as our ignorance of them, and the idea that the people in a democratic government would be spineless and not have the will to fight.

They'd actually been itching for a fight with the US since Perry's great white fleet made it's journey over 40 years earlier, because they thought (at least semi-correctly) we were challenging their planned dominance of the Pacific. The whole negotiation of the London Naval Treaty of 1922 was a rather interesting forewarning of Japanese military attitudes, but nobody paid any attention.

	27-10-2002 23:54									#35
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Tandee: So... you should wait until you get attacked? Man your priorities are messed up. Hey maybe the US should wait until Saddam releases chemcial gasses over a city and kill 100,000.... get real.

Doesn't matter what some small minority of people say against attacks... it is inevitable. It must happen.

	27-10-2002 23:56									#36
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When I see a direct correlation between terroist attacks on AMerica and Iraq I will fully support military action agaisnt Iraq. As of right now the only proof that the Bush adminstration has shown that Iraq is related to terroism agaisnt America is they weapons of mass destruction (my stars! I'm sure nobody else has these!) and is ruled by a really bad guy who likes to kill his own people (oh no! a country ruled by a bad person we have get him!). This is a poor argument at best from Bush and is most likely a way to divert the public's attention to other more important issues such as the economy, Israel, Pakistan and India don't like each that much, the fact that big bussiness seems to have a hold on our government, that more than a year after 9/11 we still have piss poor security, and the fact the most of the Arab world is ruled by nothing short of petty thugs. The war on Iraq is an easy answer to these problems from a group of subpar politicians.

	28-10-2002 00:00									#37
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I'm not going to answer you or argue with you Fez. I have no respect for you, and therefore it's not a good idea to try and discuss anything with you. Sorry.

	28-10-2002 00:18									#38
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quote: Tandee: So... you should wait until you get attacked? Man your priorities are messed up. Hey maybe the US should wait until Saddam releases chemcial gasses over a city and kill 100,000.... get real.

Yes, and before Saddam releases his twenty nukes at us! But luckily, he'll be stepping down.....oh wait, thats CHINA.
So yeah your right, we shouldnt wait for Saddam to begin harbouring terrorists and letting them train in his country. And boy, does he have a high chance of nuking his...Oh wait a minute, thats PAKISTAN.
But....you do have a point. Some people in this world really hate the US. And this entire world is powered by money....and Iraq has a ton of it. I mean, they finance terrorists every day! Oh my, wait just a second....thats SAUDI ARABIA.
And didn't Iraq violate that No Nukes treaty? Oh wait.....that was (haha) NORTH KOREA.
And hey, who says you can trust former foes turned allies...Iraq already has a HUGE stockpile and I highly doubt they'll abide by the arms reducation treaty.....Oh yes, thats RUSSIA.
And heck, you definately can't trust Iraq....theyre defeated in WW1, and then again in WW2.......Oh my, that was GERMANY. My mistake.
And when people tell you size doesnt matter.....It really does. And Iraq is a HUGE country, second largest in the world.....Wait a minute, I'm talking about CANADA.
Iraq used to be our greatest ally....they helped us win our independance AND they even gave us a large statue thats one of the most recognizable symbols of America to date....Oh wait, thats FRANCE.

ALL THESE COUNTRIES COULD ATTACK THE US AT ANY TIME. Probably all these countries have access to checmical weapons. All these countries pose a threat to the United States and her interests.

Should we attack all these countries using the Bush Doctrine? Cause the only way to eliminate every single threat to the US would be to attack them...well, not ONLY them but the entire world in fact. Heck, I'll add another one for you Fez.....

Iraq is such a threat, theyre provoked by the littest things! Some worthless island that they really didnt even have control over was taken by someone, and...THEY WERE WILLING TO GO TO WAR! See, so how can we trust him to be stable..? Oh wait, thats SPAIN I'm talking about.

So yeah, one day Spain could launch a massive attack on, oh NYC using chemical and biological weapons....Or France could. Or maybe Russia will nuke us! Germany might invade Britain....We gotta attack them all pre-emptively....

	28-10-2002 00:20									#39
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quote: Originally posted by S. Kroeze I strongly suggest that you read at least ONE history book before making ridiculous statements like the above.

Oh well, are you saying all these wars were started by Israel or that the conflicts didn't take place at all?

Maybe if you told me which history book you have been smoking I can get it, light up and we can get on the same page so to speak.

	28-10-2002 00:27									#40
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I see everyone is ignoring the options that the UN should choose if Iraq continues to defy it. What should the UN do if and when Iraq again ignores it?

And I agree Tandy that we should never have entangled ourselves with other nations the way we have. But we cannot ignore present reality and turn back the clock. Unfortunately the enemies of the United States are not nations really but terrorists cells within many nations including our own. I am opposed to a war with Iraq as I stated before (and I did not call you a member of the "peace at any cost crowd", that was a generic referrence to anyone who takes that position.)

But, I see no solution to this problem without the threat of military action toward those nations that are preparing to threaten innocent civilians. Iraq is not just going to go away. It is foolish to think that they just want to live in peace with the world. Forsaking Israel is blatant appeasement.

	28-10-2002 00:30									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Yes, and before Saddam releases his twenty nukes at us! But luckily, he'll be stepping down.....oh wait, thats CHINA. So yeah your right, we shouldnt wait for Saddam to begin harbouring terrorists and letting them train in his country. And boy, does he have a high chance of nuking his...Oh wait a minute, thats PAKISTAN. But....you do have a point. Some people in this world really hate the US. And this entire world is powered by money....and Iraq has a ton of it. I mean, they finance terrorists every day! Oh my, wait just a second....thats SAUDI ARABIA. And didn't Iraq violate that No Nukes treaty? Oh wait.....that was (haha) NORTH KOREA. And hey, who says you can trust former foes turned allies...Iraq already has a HUGE stockpile and I highly doubt they'll abide by the arms reducation treaty.....Oh yes, thats RUSSIA. And heck, you definately can't trust Iraq....theyre defeated in WW1, and then again in WW2.......Oh my, that was GERMANY. My mistake. And when people tell you size doesnt matter.....It really does. And Iraq is a HUGE country, second largest in the world.....Wait a minute, I'm talking about CANADA. Iraq used to be our greatest ally....they helped us win our independance AND they even gave us a large statue thats one of the most recognizable symbols of America to date....Oh wait, thats FRANCE. ALL THESE COUNTRIES COULD ATTACK THE US AT ANY TIME. Probably all these countries have access to checmical weapons. All these countries pose a threat to the United States and her interests. Should we attack all these countries using the Bush Doctrine? Cause the only way to eliminate every single threat to the US would be to attack them...well, not ONLY them but the entire world in fact. Heck, I'll add another one for you Fez..... Iraq is such a threat, theyre provoked by the littest things! Some worthless island that they really didnt even have control over was taken by someone, and...THEY WERE WILLING TO GO TO WAR! See, so how can we trust him to be stable..? Oh wait, thats SPAIN I'm talking about. So yeah, one day Spain could launch a massive attack on, oh NYC using chemical and biological weapons....Or France could. Or maybe Russia will nuke us! Germany might invade Britain....We gotta attack them all pre-emptively....

Can you make your point? More material, less talk. As we usually say... less hot air about irrevelant issues and more on the facts. You have managed to not make a point in that tantrum.

	28-10-2002 00:35									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Can you make your point? More material, less talk. As we usually say... less hot air about irrevelant issues and more on the facts. You have managed to not make a point in that tantrum.

Apparently (and I expected this) You couldnt see it the point. The point was, any country in this world probably could get its hands on bio/chem weapon, and any of those countries have a CHANCE of attacking the US just as Iraq does. The Bush Doctrine tells us that because they do pose a threat, we MUST attack them.....

Should we?

	28-10-2002 00:40									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Apparently (and I expected this) You couldnt see it the point. The point was, any country in this world probably could get its hands on bio/chem weapon, and any of those countries have a CHANCE of attacking the US just as Iraq does. The Bush Doctrine tells us that because they do pose a threat, we MUST attack them..... Should we?

Why don't you quit acting stupid. You are making Fez look like Einstein by comparison.

	28-10-2002 00:40									#44
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TASS: Apparently you had no frigging point. Your talk is false and phony. And because you failed in making any point I don't see why I should read your leftist tantrums.

MAKE YOUR GAWD DAMNED POINT FOR THE LAST TIME

	28-10-2002 00:41									#45
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No, we shouldn't attack anyone at random but what do you suggest the world do with a global threat of terrorism?

	28-10-2002 00:42									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln I see everyone is ignoring the options that the UN should choose if Iraq continues to defy it. What should the UN do if and when Iraq again ignores it?

This doesn't have to be discussed here, but I don't believe in the UN, so... However I don't see why they should make Iraq their special target, or why the US should pressure them to do so.

quote: And I agree Tandy that we should never have entangled ourselves with other nations the way we have. But we cannot ignore present reality and turn back the clock.

You're right, but we do have to stop doing what was always wrong in the first place. It would difficult to extricate ourselves, but we can't just keep doing the wrong things because we've been doing them for so long. The United States has the ability to change its policies and the world will certainly notice.

quote: But, I see no solution to this problem without the threat of military action toward those nations that are preparing to threaten innocent civilians.

The United States has no moral high ground on the issue of killing innocent civilans. Neither does Israel.

quote: Iraq is not just going to go away.

Why does it have to?

quote: It is foolish to think that they just want to live in peace with the world.

I didn't say that they want to live in peace with the world. But I do think they want to live in peace with the United States, and the US has to look out for the US. And that's it.

quote: Forsaking Israel is blatant appeasement.

And not doing it is blatant "we don't want to look like we're appeasing terrorists." Stop letting them affect your positions and just do what is right, regardless of what anyone else thinks.

	28-10-2002 00:45									#47
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Well I think it is right to be friends with Israel.

	28-10-2002 00:45									#48
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quote: The point was, any country in this world probably could get its hands on bio/chem weapon, and any of those countries have a CHANCE of attacking the US just as Iraq does. The point was, any country in this world probably could get its hands on bio/chem weapon, and any of those countries have a CHANCE of attacking the US just as Iraq does. The point was, any country in this world probably could get its hands on bio/chem weapon, and any of those countries have a CHANCE of attacking the US just as Iraq does. The point was, any country in this world probably could get its hands on bio/chem weapon, and any of those countries have a CHANCE of attacking the US just as Iraq does. The point was, any country in this world probably could get its hands on bio/chem weapon, and any of those countries have a CHANCE of attacking the US just as Iraq does.

EDIT: Sorry, it's just so easy.

Hmm... is JT identifying with Fez? Sounds about right to me.

	28-10-2002 00:46									#49
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By the way, I don't like the UN either but I thought that was a good debating point.

	28-10-2002 00:46									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Well I think it is right to be friends with Israel.

Didn't you agree with me about entangling alliances? I can't imagine one that more accurately fits the bill.

	28-10-2002 00:48									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Fez TASS: Apparently you had no frigging point. Your talk is false and phony. And because you failed in making any point I don't see why I should read your leftist tantrums. MAKE YOUR GAWD DAMNED POINT FOR THE LAST TIME

LOL

Tandee put it quite nicely. Apparnetly however you are either incapable of understand or you simply refuse to understand.

	28-10-2002 00:49									#52
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quote: Originally posted by tandeetaylor Didn't you agree with me about entangling alliances? I can't imagine one that more accurately fits the bill.

Yes, I agree.

	28-10-2002 00:50									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln By the way, I don't like the UN either but I thought that was a good debating point.

Argue with integrity. It looks better.

	28-10-2002 00:51									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 LOL Tandee put it quite nicely. Apparnetly however you are either incapable of understand or you simply refuse to understand.

Understand? The false argument? The opinion of the leftists? I am sorry but I am in support of the war.

	28-10-2002 00:52									#55
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I don't think resistance against a war between the US (and some allies) and Iraq is on the rise. What indications of this do we have? Some thousands of protestors in a world of 6 billion people?

Fact. As long as Bush sees polls of likely American voters showing a strong support for action in Iraq, he has a strong hand in promising action in Iraq. Only about 1.25% of the world's population has to be for the action for it to take place.

	28-10-2002 00:52									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Yes, I agree.

?!?!?!?!

Right or wrong? Right or Wrong? Right or Wrong?

	28-10-2002 01:06									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Understand? The false argument? The opinion of the leftists? I am sorry but I am in support of the war.

Ah, so......you refuse to accept any point that goes AGAINST the war as any type of arguement....

Thank you for quite nicely proving that you are indeed a blind sheep.

	28-10-2002 01:07									#58
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The point is that people (many from the "peace at any cost crowd") think that the UN is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I was asking those people what the UN should do if that orginization was defied. So far I haven't got an answer.

	28-10-2002 01:09									#59
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oops

	28-10-2002 01:14									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Ah, so......you refuse to accept any point that goes AGAINST the war as any type of arguement....

I do and I have bias like every other human being.