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Ironikinit
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The intent of this thread is not, repeat not, to discuss evolution vs. creationism. As far as I am concerned, creationists have consistently been nothing but wrong and in fact pose a threat to the education of children and to the well-being of those who would expose the lies of creationists. Rather, I'm looking to find out how common creationism is in countries outside the United States, in the experiences of the readers of this forum.
I've often heard that creationism was only common in the United States and I personally knew several creationists. However, I recently moved to Australia and have met several people who question evolution. I was upset to learn that creationists have had notable success in Queensland, even winning a court battle to allow creation "science" to be taught in school. I was futher dismayed to read about Ian Pilcher, an Australian professor who went bankrupt due to a lawsuit brought against him by a creationist group. (Australia has really bad defamation laws IMO.) Pilcher also claims to have received death threats from the creationists. The Australian creationist movement is said to have been imported from the United States, suggesting to me that American fundamentalist groups pose an international threat.
I also recall that quite recently there was a controversy in Britain when the media publicized that Emmanuel College was teaching creationism in science class.
I wish to make clear that I am an US citizen and consider myself a patriot, although I dislike certain customs common to my fellow citizens. I also have no problem with teaching origin myths in public school so long as it is in a religion or literature class.
My questions are:
Have you seen any signs of creationism (aka creation science aka intelligent design) gaining currency in countries other than the United States? Are creationist magazines sold or given away in your country? Have creationist organizations held lectures (often, as I understand it, under the pretence of discussing evolutionary theory) or rallies? Have creationists pressured schools in your country to include creationism in science classes or to put disclaimers in biology texts?
Any comments on the topic (so long as they are not attacks on evolution, take those to another thread or better yet go read a book by, say, Stephen Jay Gould) would be appreciated.
Thank you for reading.
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monkspider
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banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:23
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Creationism has been on the fringe for the most part, the ID movement however, has been gaining quite a bit of steam with respectable scientists.
BTW, I urge you to pick up a book by Michael J. Behe or William Dembski instead of formulating silly trolls such as these. While creationists do pose a threat to the education system it is a threat several orders of magnitude less than strangehold that evolutionists have on the education system. Say what you will about creationists, but evolutionists have had their dogma so throughly engrained into science textbooks that any thoughtful dialogue on some of the, shall we say, "inadaqucies" of evolution is impossible.
Last edited by monkspider on 28-10-2002 at 14:13
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CyberShy
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Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:23
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quote:
It seems to be mostly limited to the nutty fringe evangelists that have little traction in Austria (or Europe, for that matter). |
cool, you must be an arier as well!
You're a blond, blue eyes, and you feel superior as well?
In the middle ages the majorigy teached a flat earth, and everybody who said something else was concidered to be a fool. The most educated people said the earth was flat. And the inquisition killed everybody who thought different.
Pherhaps in 400 years people will laugh about those foolish 20th and 21th centuries, in which the most educated people and the big mass all believed in evolution.
And yes, in the middle ages most people thought that would never happen as well.
You can live up to the education system of the day, that's no problem. But please stop being that arrogant, and feeling that superior.
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CyberShy
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Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:23
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quote:
It's going to take several pages just to list some of the lies that Creationists have been throwing around even after they were exposed. I don't mean just hotly debated topics, but things that have been shown to be false. Things such as misquotes and scientific falsehoods. |
Are you that silly or am I that inteligent?
If you don't want to debate something, don't write down your opinion on it, otherwise expect reactions.
That has nothing to do with how right or how wrong you are! If I'm right about the fact that balls are round, but I don't want to discuss the topic, the most stupid thing I can do is starting a thread like:
"Balls are round and everybody who thinks different is a completely ignorant and silly person but I don't want to discuss this topic"
Besides that, if you have an opinion, don't feel superior above others. And yes UR, in the middle ages, people of the flat earth theory thought simular to you.
Pherhaps you are right, but it's really absurd to feel superior. Your superior feeling makes it impossible for you to have an independant look at the issue, and makes you a fundamentalists. But you do'nt see it. You think you're the most wise and inteligent man on earth, and everybody who disagrees with you is a fool.
Everybody who's inteligent, has much knowledge and experience, but who thinks like that will hardly be respected and never be token serious but by the people who agree with him. But that's not hard, to be respected by people who did already agree with you.
Is that what you want?
You're much too smart for such an attitude Urban Ranger!
You've studied too much to be such a shortsighted fundamentalist. I do expect such things from trolls like Sava, but I expect some rationalism and wisdom from you
I really do.
Don't dissapoint me.
Take Roland, he reads my message, but he doesn't get the point. I wonder if he really doesn't understand it, or if he's just trying to get around it. It's not a hard message, it morely reads "watch out to not fall for the same mistakes people made in the past"
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Rogan Josh
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Here in my part of France/Switzerland I don't think I know many creationist, so it is definitely not widespread.
I personally believe something like evolution took place. I do, however, find it a little bit intellectually dishonest the way it is taught and portrayed. My impression is that the general populace derides anyone who doubts evolution - 'if they don't believe in evolution then they must be stupid'. I even see this attitude in schools where evolution is taught.
This is extremely unhealthy. The first rule of science is to doubt everything you are taught. Don't try and verify the really well established theories - try to bring them down. In fact, at the level that evolution is taught in schools (ie. pretty primative) no-one should be taking it for granted.
Of course, the doubters should be trying to establish some kind of scientific method to destroy evolution, not just saying it is wrong without any proof.
This overconfidence in current scientific thought is completely rife in today's society. I see it in almost every fireld. It is especially bad in the realm of high-energy/particle physics where the public believe anything they are told....
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28-10-2002 11:50
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