31-10-2002 13:22									#181
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A reply to an earlier post

Where in the bible does it say oh don't worry about this bit its just a metaphor. How do i know which bits are literal and which are not.

Is there an apendix I'm missing

	31-10-2002 18:11									#182
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Rogan: I think you have confused creationism with something else... Possibly with what Lincoln claims creationism to be.

No. It doesn't matter what the definition is. If one has an omnipotent diety who can manipulate the universe any way he likes (otherwise he wouldn't be omnipotent), then none of the evidence for evolution as the origin of species is 100% trustworthy. In other words, God could have put the fossils in the ground for us to find. He could have set up the DNA structures of living beings to make it look like they evolved from common ancestors. He could have made up every peice of evidence for evolution as a test of faith for us.

I don't actually believe this - I am playing the role of 'Devil's Advocate'. I am not even saying that this is a reasonable thing to believe on a scientific level (since it is non-predicitive), but it could be true. Furthermore, since one can never prove whether it is true or not, it is a religious belief.

	01-11-2002 00:02									#183
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I'm sorry, Rogan, but to do that he would have to be essentially nihilistic. If he is willing to believe that an omnipotent deity actually faked evidence rather than accept something as simple as evolution, where would he draw the line? "Hmm, it doesn't seem my experiment went as I predicted... Well, my originial hypothesis is still correct, but the omnipotent deity changed the results to test my faith". You see where this is heading, I assume...

Look, you don't have to be atheist to be a scientist. But you do have to understand and accept basic tenets of science. Accepting that an omnipotent deity changed stuff for his own inscrutable ends is not among those tenets.

	01-11-2002 00:56									#184
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If there is an omnipotent God who actively intervenes into the affairs of the universe then scientists cannot say that there is even such a thing as evolution. If God himself manipulates the supposed mutations and if he causes the conditions to be such that one animal group survives and another perishes then the whole idea of Darwinism is a joke. I am not saying that there is not truth in evolution but science must exclude the possibility of God or their observations prove nothing but what God let's us prove. The main reason why Dawinism must be protected at all costs is because it is the only hope of the atheist. He must pretend that there is no God or he is out of a job! As soon as it becomes clear that there really is a God then he must admit that virtually anything is possible including manipulation of the speed of light and the laws of physics. Early scientists tried to discover how exactly God did things. Now days it is in vogue to pretend that no one ever did anything and the abstract being named "evolution" is omnipotent!

	01-11-2002 01:11									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln The main reason why Dawinism must be protected at all costs is because it is the only hope of the atheist. He must pretend that there is no God or he is out of a job!

Who's out of a job, the atheist, or the scientist? (I assume you mean the former, but I didn't know that "atheist" is a job, any more than "theist" is a job.)

Also, how does evolution disprove the existence of God? If it doesn't disprove the existence of God, then why are you so hung up about it? Why aren't you as hung up about palientology or astronomy or geology or any of the other evil atheist sciences that disagree with the Bible?

BTW, do you really believe that we evil pot-smoking atheists just sit around cackling and coming up with evil (and pot-smoking) plans to try to disprove the existence of God (because of course we evil pot-smoking atheists actually believe in God, but we hate Him because we're evil, so we try to pretend that we don't believe in Him), or are you just trolling?

	01-11-2002 01:20									#186
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I don't remember mentioning "pot smoking atheists"

Also I don't remember saying that "evolution disproves the existence of God". And I am not "hung up about it". I actually believe that many parts of the theory are valid. I just find it intersting that it has become the god of many atheists and they subscribe to it omnipotent powers. Also, I did not call anyone who disagrees with me "evil". Now do you have a question?

	01-11-2002 01:22									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Now do you have a question?

No, your post has pretty much already answered it.

	01-11-2002 01:26									#188
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If there's an invisible pink unicorn named Bob that every nanosecond injects us with undetectable drugs that cause us to believe in this reality, then the whole idea of a hamburger is crap. The main reason why the existence of hamburgers must be protected at all costs is that it's the only hope of unbelievers of Bob. He must pretend there is no Bob or he's out of a job! As soon as it's clear Bob exists, virtually everything is possible. Nowadays it's vogue to pretend Bob really hasn't done anything and that these imaginary things called hamburgers are omnipotent.

	01-11-2002 01:27									#189
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Hey, no fair using a copycat troll! You must be high or something if you can't see that Lincoln's troll is self-evidently better than yours!

	01-11-2002 01:29									#190
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Beware the omnipotent hamburgers. They're going to take over the world!!!

	01-11-2002 01:32									#191
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Snoggo the Wonder Rainbow is gonna kick their asses!

	01-11-2002 01:34									#192
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But he isn't omnipotent. Clearly, he's inferior.

	01-11-2002 01:35									#193
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I wonder if buddhist hould be qualified as aetheists: after all, they don't believe in a single, sentient entity that willfully creates and rules the universe and creation..

Damn aethistic Buddhist scumbag priests!

And lets not get started on the Heathen hindu and their moneky gods!

	01-11-2002 01:36									#194
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Of course, the ten feet tall white rabbit ownz both. Feed the hare.

	01-11-2002 01:39									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo But he isn't omnipotent. Clearly, he's inferior.

He's not omnipotent? I feel so used!

	01-11-2002 01:43									#196
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I wonder if buddhist hould be qualified as aetheists

They're usually considered to be atheists, since the gods in their cosmology are mortal and nothing very special. They'll surely feel Bob's wrath for not realizing that the Bible is clearly superior to the Sutras.

	01-11-2002 01:46									#197
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That's what they do to you. They use you and then they throw you away. All of them. Snuggo, the Wily Wondermut, even the Hare.

	01-11-2002 01:47									#198
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There are so many variations of Buddhism that it is hard to keep track. I studied it some in Thailand. Many refer to 'God' but they are not all talking about the same thing.

	01-11-2002 01:48									#199
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I've met Bob. He married one of our neighbours. Bob is nice. He claims he comes from far far away, from a mythical magical island called 'New Zeeland'. Sometimes he grills burgers.

	01-11-2002 01:49									#200
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BTW, Lincoln, in your world, is the pope considered an atheist?

After all, he does accept evolution.

	01-11-2002 01:50									#201
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Attachment: bob.gif
This has been downloaded 43 time(s).

	01-11-2002 01:52									#202
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I didn't know you were a sheep worshipper...

	01-11-2002 01:56									#203
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Seeing as how the sheep created the oceans and seas, it's crazy not to be sheep worshiper. The Atlanteans didn't worship sheep, and look what happened to them.

	01-11-2002 02:04									#204
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Thanks Ramo. I wasn't sure if "worshiper" was spelled with one or two 'p's.

	01-11-2002 02:04									#205
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I think Rogan has some valid points. Yet he is still confusing belief with science.

I got something that disproves evolution: The giraffe, how the heck did that get through natural selection?

I think when the bible says that man was created in god's image, it actually means that man created god. How 'bout that for a twist? Basically, in order to exist it has to be believed in, thus faith creates reality. So clap real hard little kiddies so that tinkerbell will come back to life!

It is still the same in classical chemistry. We believe that the atom is constructed of protons and neutrons surrended by a mass of electrons, but no one has actually seen one. Yet, by realizing what isn't there we have guessed at what is there. Then we begin to toy with it, and from it's responses we gauge its nature. This is what was done.

Religion is the same in that it looks for what isn't there judges the nature of what is there and formulates its own conclusion. Then, they toy with it, and from the reactions determine it's nature.

If I pray real hard and I work will hard for what I pray for, and I get it... What was the cause? To a zealot that would be the prayer, to someone who is "sane" it would be hard work. (Thus, to point out another thread the ends do not necessarily justify the means).

Both science and religion work in similar ways but receive different anwsers. It is all a matter of who is asking the question.

Personally, I think the difference is that one believes in questioning everything, while the other just believes in everything and that is pretty cosmopolitan.

	01-11-2002 02:04									#206
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quote: I am not saying that there is not truth in evolution but science must exclude the possibility of God or their observations prove nothing but what God let's us prove.

Ah, it is always nice to pinpoint exactly where someones reasoning goes awry. Evolution is fully compatible with a deity, as long as one doesn't assume that the Deity is stupid or just plain mischievous.

Why would an omnipotent God bother with creating the laws of physics if he would then spend his time fiddling with it? Wouldn't be very omnipotent of him, would it? Well, maybe with a new slogan: Jehova - Omnipotent and incompetent: two for the prize of one.

No, the sad truth is that the supposed contradiction between evolution and religion is a manufactured one...

	01-11-2002 02:07									#207
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No, the happy truth is that God is greater than his laws. I guess you never heard of Jesus walking on the water??

	01-11-2002 02:08									#208
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quote: I wasn't sure if "worshiper" was spelled with one or two 'p's.

Bob only made you think I spelled it like that.

Given the number of typos I usually make, that isn't too bad.

	01-11-2002 02:11									#209
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I'll believe that when I see it

But you didn;t repsond to the point though: There is no contradiction between evolution and religion.

One can be a devout believer and a scientist.
One can be an agnostic and a scientist.
One can be a firm atheist and a scientist.
One can be stupid and a creationist.

Those are the options.

	01-11-2002 02:14									#210
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Well if you read my previous posts you will find that I agree with you. Except I must add one more option:

One can be stupid and an evolutionist.