29-10-2002 17:54									#1
	I didn't want to attack this submarine ... Support Apolyton

I think, it happens since I installed the latest patch, that I cannot see enemy subs at all (except for my own subs, of course), not even when I attack them. When my ships run over one, they just seem to fire into the open sea, even transports attack the hidden subs (Edit: and get sunk).
And if I encounter a sub of a friendly AI, I only recognize it, because my advisor asks me, if I really want to attack them.

Shouldn't it be, that you see the sub, BEFORE you run into it and then can choose to go around?
And don't I remember correctly that it has been this way before one of the latest patchlevels (Maybe I remember it wrong. I know, it was this way in CTP)?

Last edited by Der PH on 29-10-2002 at 18:47

	29-10-2002 18:30									#2
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Maybe there should be a slim chance of noticing the sub before you try to enter that square?

If you don't see the sub, shouldn't you be able to go over it?

I've never run into subs made by the enemy...

	29-10-2002 18:53									#3
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo Maybe there should be a slim chance of noticing the sub before you try to enter that square?

Maybe it is that way and I'm just having bad luck, but I don't believe it.

quote: Originally posted by aaglo If you don't see the sub, shouldn't you be able to go over it?

I think it would be a problem, if two units of different Civs stay in the same tile.

quote: Originally posted by aaglo I've never run into subs made by the enemy...

I'm always playing archipelago maps, where naval war is very important and quite common and I have to admit that the AI is doing a rather good job at it; maybe because it knows the location of all your troops (as rumors say), which is a BIG advantage on the oceans.

	29-10-2002 20:03									#4
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quote: Shouldn't it be, that you see the sub, BEFORE you run into it and then can choose to go around?

That is not very realistic, the whole idea with subs is that you should not see them until it´s too late.

	29-10-2002 20:12									#5
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I've never run into subs from friendly civs but I have sunk quite a few simply by running into them in the open. I liked the civ2 approach better, the sub was invisible until you actually tried to run over it. Then it became visible for the rest of the turn giving you the choice to ram it or not.

On second thoughts, the civ3 approach is actually better. Losing transports to subs because you didn't screen the area with other units is actually VERY accurate historically speaking.

	29-10-2002 20:22									#6
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quote: Originally posted by bongo I liked the civ2 approach better, the sub was invisible until you actually tried to run over it. Then it became visible for the rest of the turn giving you the choice to ram it or not.

That's exactly, what I mean. And I think, it has been this way in Civ3, too, before one of the patches, but I'm not sure. Or at least the sub was visible for the fight in pre-patch Civ3, but now my ships seem to attack the open sea, which looks stupid.

quote: Originally posted by bongo On second thoughts, the civ3 approach is actually better. Losing transports to subs because you didn't screen the area with other units is actually VERY accurate historically speaking.

I'm not complaining, just wondering.

	29-10-2002 20:42									#7
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IIRC, it works this way. If you pass over a square with the enemy sub, you attack it - the way it's supposed to be. If you pass over a square with an allied sub, you get the choice to declare war.

Note that in the unpatched version, if you pass an allied sub, you automatically declare war on your ally, which was one of things making late game impossible pre-patch.

	29-10-2002 20:51									#8
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You should pass over submarines, simply.... See nothing, just pass over.

	29-10-2002 21:01									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Trifna You should pass over submarines, simply.... See nothing, just pass over.

Yeah i agree, it should be the subs choice to attack or just let the ship pass.

	29-10-2002 21:05									#10
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I don't usually focus on naval warfare but, I think that destoryers and ACC should be able to spot subs in any square (maybe 2 or 3 even 3 for an ACC) next to them. I mean ship have radar\sonar that can detect subs right? so why can't the ones in the game? that way you could try to have a wounded ship meet up with some friends as opposed to just dying. Also in MP what if I have a weak navy but a strong army and I have an ally on another continent that needs my help. Now let's say this person has a strong navy but a weaker army, he could offer to protect my transports for me, however we wont be able to be in the same square so it will be easier for subs to pick all my transports off. I think there should at least be a special unit that can scan for subs in a 5x5 square area for example only that would count as it's move.

	29-10-2002 21:29									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Note that in the unpatched version, if you pass an allied sub, you automatically declare war on your ally, which was one of things making late game impossible pre-patch.

That's realy bad! Never encountered this (luckily).

	29-10-2002 21:37									#12
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Generally, before the first patch, game actually ended in the Industrial Age. It was impossible to play in the modern - I had to reload from saves very often because I just declared war on my ally because of that bug. Also, Air Superiority worked for the AI, but never for you. Simply, you couldn't intercept AI planes, so if it could get just a few, it was very tough for you.

	29-10-2002 21:37									#13
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For seeing subs: need AEGIS or Destroyers

For safe moves: don't move with arrow keys, use Goto or group (j) to see if a problem. The safest bet is to proceed a vulnerable unit with a BS. Sometimes I put a sub in the stack just to be sure see other subs.

-- PF

	29-10-2002 22:51									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Der PH Maybe it is that way and I'm just having bad luck, but I don't believe it. I think it would be a problem, if two units of different Civs stay in the same tile. I'm always playing archipelago maps, where naval war is very important and quite common and I have to admit that the AI is doing a rather good job at it; maybe because it knows the location of all your troops (as rumors say), which is a BIG advantage on the oceans.

No, it's not bad luck. I've had the same thing happen many times (once in my last game as a matter of fact), and I'm positive I didn't see it before I attacked it.

EDIT: Ahh, nevermind. I just read planetfall's post.

	29-10-2002 23:57									#15
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no, this is the new patch. it also makes it so you cant see which square a sub is attacking from.

and the suitation you explained is awesome, it's like a REAL blockade that you can't even see.

makes them FAR MORE USEFUL in my opinion, cant wait for MP.

wolfpacks kick ass.

	30-10-2002 02:44									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Trifna You should pass over submarines, simply.... See nothing, just pass over.

submarines aren't exactly the most useful of units as it is, remove this and they become pretty pointless.

quote: Originally posted by Solver Note that in the unpatched version, if you pass an allied sub, you automatically declare war on your ally, which was one of things making late game impossible pre-patch.

ah the joys of testing, Firaxis must have beta-tested the modern age all of 10s to miss that one or the "bomber? what bomber?" air superiority bug...