30-10-2002 12:09									#1
	Do you build the Science City? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I always loved the concept of the Science city in Civ2. Although not as powerful as in this game, I couldn't kick the habit at playing civ3.

(If someone has still missed the concept: build possibly colossus, copernicus, isaac etc. in a city with potential good commerce, usually your capital, develop this city, library, university etc. and you get plenty of tech)

I really tried to get rid of it, but next game on monarch I couldn't get a single early wonder - but colossus! (No AI capital on coast - lucky me ). And SC was really useful that game, because I couldn't expand like in regent game before.

Advantages:

- Colossus on higher levels more likely to get than other early wonders

- SC usually your capital or near - little corruption makes the wonders more powerful, the smaller the map, the more important

- chance for good starting position, there is usually a luxury nearby (hopefully near coast)

- if you head for single cultural victory (or build a "win assurance"), you gotta build your capital, why not make the SC?

In my games I got usually 20-25% of tech from my SC until modern age.

Do you build it, or do you consider it a waste of time (because of tech whoring etc.)?

	30-10-2002 12:24									#2
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I've only built the Colossus once, myself. I tend to just spread the wonders around. My reason for this is that I am hooked on the top five cities page. Two or three wonders in my capital is usually enough to get the number one spot, another three or four wonders spread through the next three cities. There always seems to be one civ gets a city or two in the list. I target them for destruction.
As far as the corruption level goes I tend to manipulate luxuries to get WLTKD running then shift my capital one or two times, so as to get the best out of all my captured cities. There isn't any real reason to build any one city with so many wonders in it if you can get to grips with the corruption (I play huge maps so its a big issue). Playing MP you will find that wonder city gets targetted pretty heavily, no?

	30-10-2002 12:33									#3
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bbaws,

I guess you're right about the MP thing.
In MP I will only build troops anyway.

ok, on huge maps the SC is less powerful. But on smaller maps you can lessen the impact of corruption somewhat by bundling a lot of research in your SC.

	30-10-2002 13:50									#4
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I build it, if I can. In my epic huge French game in September I had an SC with far more than 300 beakers. An SC is always a nice to have, although not a must.

	30-10-2002 15:02									#5
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Usually, If I can get the science wonders (copernikus obs or newton uni), I allways try to put them in the same city. And usually this city is the same with forbidden palace. This is because this city allways produces a lot of shields (I wouldn't have made the FP in this city, if there were not many shields available.)

	30-10-2002 15:48									#6
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I often move my capital later in the game, so odds are that the Colossus (if I get it) will be near my original capital while Copernicus's and Newton's will ideally be in the same other city near either the Forbidden Palace or my final capital. (Of course it's not always possible to build Copernicus's and Newton's in the same city; sometimes the only way to get both is to build them in different places.)

Nathan

	30-10-2002 20:23									#7
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I nearly always take a shot at the Colossus. But it isn't always the case that my Colossus city is my #1 commerce city (if it lacks a river). Therefore, Copernicus and Newton are often elsewhere (most likely in my FP city).

Nathan's point about the Palace move is important here too. I have taken to building the FP close to the original capitol, and then moving the palace later. That usually preserves my Colossus city.

-Arrian

	30-10-2002 21:40									#8
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I never build it. I find on deity that I really haven't gotten time.

	30-10-2002 21:41									#9
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I do it sometimes... if it looks like I got an early good city. I will always try to grab Copernicus, building it in the city with most breakers, and if I do, I'll really really really want Newton's there as well.

	31-10-2002 00:32									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

If like me you keep an eye on the top5 cities table you'll notice that the collossus city (unless it's in the middle of a war zone) generally figures there. It's a powerful wonder and I can sympathise with the whole SC concept, it was the way to go in CIV2. My bugbear is that very few ppl seem to have gotten to grips with the corruption issue. The SC is largely irrelevant in CIV3, though because one can, with a lot of effort, reduce the corruption you experience to trifling levels. Ideally you don't want all your eggs in one basket.

	31-10-2002 00:58									#11
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I like to sometimes on easier levels. if I see a city with lots of river, it doesn't even need colossus, just newton's uni, seti, copernicus. All those together can m,ake a nasty SC!

	31-10-2002 01:13									#12
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If possible... not a huge priority, but satisfying.

	31-10-2002 02:32									#13
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quote: Originally posted by bbaws If like me you keep an eye on the top5 cities table you'll notice that the collossus city (unless it's in the middle of a war zone) generally figures there.

I am not sure, if I understood you correctly. The Top 5 Cities are the culture leading cities, it has nothing to do with the wonders itself, only with the culture they generate.

	31-10-2002 13:36									#14
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I loved the SSC in Civ2, and have been building it in Civ3. But I'm only playing at the lower levels right now; it seems like it would be quite difficult to build up near emperor and deity.

	04-11-2002 15:04									#15
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When it comes time time to build the science wonders, i go to F1 and set the luxuries at 100% then sort by commerce. Since the wonders are not cumulative, they just need to go into the city w/ the best potential base commerce.

Allowance needs to be made for potential future city growth and such. Copernicus and Newton's usually ends up in the Colossus city. SETI may very well have a different optimal city to be in since the Colossus expired with flight.

So it seems my SC just kinda happens if it is also the best base commerce city.

	04-11-2002 19:21									#16
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In OCC games I attempt, my city is always a SC!

Otherwise, I don't usually bother. I don't actually prioritize any of the science improvements (other than the GL), so I don't even consider a SC an option. Perhaps I should try it out.


Dominae

	04-11-2002 22:46									#17
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I am unable to get most sci wonders until SETI, unless I play at Monarch or lower. Once in a while I can at Emp, but not often. I have to go to warmonger early to get into that kind of position.

	05-11-2002 01:00									#18
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the first time ever I built the colossus in civ3 was at the AU107 game. But I nearly always try to build both Newton's and Kopernikus' in the same city.
I usually don't play a game long enough to be able to build SETI, after the first half of the industrial times I usually restart because I get bored.

	06-11-2002 01:38									#19
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by SanPellegrino I am not sure, if I understood you correctly. The Top 5 Cities are the culture leading cities, it has nothing to do with the wonders itself, only with the culture they generate.

I've always wondered how the top 5 cities were decided.

I usually look to see which are my best trade cities that have good production and at least build Copernicus and/or Newton's in that city. I do also tend to build SETI in the same science producing city.