30-10-2002 20:49									#1
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Something I really am looking forward to is the elements of Civil Wars and Rebellions.

Having up to 32 empires in a game makes it seem like the universe will actually be an organism which expands and contracts. Plus it makes espionage more important for politique, rather then the old information / tech gatherer.

IMO a serious flaw in CivIII. Empires never contract unless through agression, which in not moddled after RL, especially for a game about the rise and fall of cultures. Giant empires tend to break-up.

	30-10-2002 23:45									#2
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Historical accuracy is not always fun to play though. It takes a special kind of person to play through the massive revolts some countries experience in EU2 and an even more special person to do it again because they enjoy it.

	31-10-2002 00:33									#3
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I never played the EU series. So I do not know the level of fustration or irritabilty it might cause. But I figure that with civil wars or rebellions, it will keep you on your toes as an emperor. Having an "independent" populace is one of the ideas behind the 5X. It is one of the things that I eagerly wait for to come into fruition. A lack of control makes every turn critical.

	31-10-2002 06:40									#4
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Hey, the English civil war in EU2 is damn fun. You play a rising power on the global scene, but you gotta keep it together at the same time, and pray no one will intervene in your private bloodbath between the loyalists and parliamentarians.

The use of historical event scripts (like the civil war mentioned above) really makes EU2 shine.

In strat games, I love seeing large internal crises that overspill into politics and the battlefield.

	31-10-2002 15:44									#5
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English Civil War is fine because it only lasts a short while. There are some nations which have a 5% chance of a revolt per province per month for decades and only get about 50 years of peace before it happens all over agin. They are the ones I was thinking of as strictly for masochists.

The level and breadth of random events in EU2 is generally very good. Even better, you can avoid some catastrophic events simply by choosing to play a different nation, and with 200+ to choose from that's no hardship.

	31-10-2002 20:20									#6
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[qutoe]Even better, you can avoid some catastrophic events simply by choosing to play a different nation, and with 200+ to choose from that's no hardship.[/quote]

Wow! That's a lot of choices! Let me guess, are the larger powers within each period the most difficult to control?

	01-11-2002 12:24									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Orange Wow! That's a lot of choices! Let me guess, are the larger powers within each period the most difficult to control?

The worst tend to be those overextended empires you were talking about earlier, like the Golden Khan etc. A lot of empires which are long ago relegated to the history books, and for good reason. A lot of poor provinces, religious and cultural differences and a poor tech level tend to add up to dissolution, especially if there are some scripted historical events to add fuel to the fire. The best thing about EU2 is probably the fact that you can play so many different types of games. Some countries are so hard that to merely survive is a challenge. Other countries (under your expert hand) can conveivably (and with great difficulty) take over the entire world (with enormous rebellions etc.)

	01-11-2002 15:27									#8
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The large powers offered to you as default choice picks are probably the easiest to command because they are the empires primed for a glorious future over most of the time period. Some other large empires are headed for really rough times.

In EU(2) its much better to have a small, wealthy, culturally and religiously unified country than to have a large expanse of divided peoples under your command. That's why expanding your empire is far more of an art than in other games. You don't grab everything from the weak, you grab the bits that are easier to chew up and swallow, digest them then take another careful bite.

	01-11-2002 19:35									#9
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quote: The worst tend to be those overextended empires

So expansion is calculated and conquored provinces had to have certain similarities to make it worth it?

quote: In EU(2) its much better to have a small, wealthy, culturally and religiously unified country

A la Low Countries?

	01-11-2002 20:19									#10
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Each province has a religion and a culture. Your nation has one or more national cultures and one state religion. Every new culture above your national one(s) increases the cost of research and "stability" and their loyalty is a bit weaker. You set your state tolerance to religions but it is a zero sum game. If you are positive about one or more religions you have to be negative toward others (leading to religious revolts).

The low countries actually emerge as a discreet nation during the game, so that is an event which causes the owners of those provinces high revolt problems for a while. When/if they throw off the chains they become a nice small rich nation, yes

	03-11-2002 13:09									#11
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I wonder if discontent is a condition for Rebellions or if they can result from a unseen plot or somesuch ...

I suppose it depends on what kind of government you have ... it's for example not that likely that a democracy decends into civil war unless there is some seriouse factors affecting the poppulation, of cource these factour could be the results of intricate plotting still you'd see it coming at least to some extent ... in a dictatorship howerver I'd expect there to be more plotting targeted against the ruling class.

Anyhow I'm looking forward to scourging any heretics that stand in the glourious path of my empire !
It's a most satisfying feeling when you overcome those "damnit I just lost 3 core systems" events ... at least if you get to blow them to smithereens ...

	09-11-2002 23:58									#12
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I hpe so. I get tired of "blowing things up, stealing tech or finding information". I am a real picky about Diplomacy features and even more so about Espionage. I personally think these features are always overlooked in RTS/TBS games.

I want to be able to plot overthrows, steal ships, bribe New Orions... I want to win solely through Black Ops!!!!

I know, wishful thinking.

	10-11-2002 05:20									#13
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I agree with you. It would be so neat to play that kind of game. But maybe your wrong about Moo3 not being it...

What about it Rantz?
Is it merely wishful thinking or can you win MOO3 with Diplomacy and Black Ops alone?

	10-11-2002 21:47									#14
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Well in reality you could not win with diplomacy and Black Ops alone... You certainly need also official moves! No actual country is entirely behind curtains since why not taking profit of the easy parts elsewhere too, in economy or other? You're not idiot enough to stop your people from getting the country stronger are you? :P

	10-11-2002 23:50									#15
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Idiot? I've been know to be an idiot sometimes.

I want my "nation" to be strong through trade, research and such. But I would be intersting if you could win with the smallest (no) fleet, or bind yourslef in so many postive treaties, fleets would become irrelevant. (maybe New Orion Senate Victory?)

	11-11-2002 02:20									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Orange I want my "nation" to be strong through trade, research and such. But I would be intersting if you could win with the smallest (no) fleet, or bind yourslef in so many postive treaties, fleets would become irrelevant. (maybe New Orion Senate Victory?)

It is known that a data pad containing a non-aggression treaty lasts about 1 nanosecond in front of an active 12000mm plasma cannon.

I'm all for peaceful victory, but I suspect that if I'm too popular in the senate, some of my allies won't be there when I call for them when I'm being attacked by superior forces.

	11-11-2002 06:37									#17
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I just thought of something. They say that diplomacy and espionage have been improved, compared to say, Moo2, right? So it is quite possible that you can buy systems, ships, and tech from other races that you are in good standing with. Then it is also possible that you will be able to steal huge amounts of money from your enemies (along with the occassional tech.) So if you play a strong diplomatic / spy race like the Evon then might it not be possible with a three system empire to steal money from your enemies and use that money to buy tech and ships from your allies. You could also buy systems from neutrals and give them to your allies. When you think you are powerful enough then you could activate your thousands of sleeper agents deep in enemy territory and in twenty turns have completely destroyed his economy and assassinated all his leaders. After that you walk over his colonies with your Psilon-tech equipt ships.

Maybe I dream, but...

	11-11-2002 15:52									#18
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While I hope they keep spying to more or less what's available in Moo2. I still get mad thinking about how overblown spying options utterly ruined an otherwise interesting game like Pax 2.

	11-11-2002 20:18									#19
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Maybe "peaceful" was the wrong word choice - on my part -. I'm thinking more along SeanV's post as to the idea of what might happen.

Now of course diplomacy is only as good as it is consistent and if the AI knows how to use it effectively. Having said that, I do desire a more nuanced (not necessarily complex) form of treaty and negotiation. All the enemy's pores would get clogged by those treaties and operations, leading to the ultimate assertion of an intelligence network, inciting a successful rebellion upon your enemy.

Or your new client state, if you will .



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