30-10-2002 20:56									#1
	Raising the Science Slider Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

We need to weigh down our options and decide: should we raise the science slider to 30% (at least until Democracy is discovered) or not?
I have made this list of pros and cons. If I've missed anything or got some of the figures awfully wrong, please correct me.

Pros

• We will get Democracy in 16 turns, which is 24 turns faster, thus we'll be able to enjoy the benefits of Democracy 21 turns earlier, assuming that we'll switch to Democracy immediately after the GA is over.
  
• I am positive that at this rate of research, and considering the normal AI research patterns, we will be the first to discover Democracy and get to whore it around.
  

Last edited by Shiber on 30-10-2002 at 21:57

	30-10-2002 21:24									#2
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Actually, unless the budget is too tight, I'd recommend raising it to 50%.

Finishing Democracy before our Golden Age ends is NOT a waste. The quicker Democracy is researched, the quicker we can start resarching the next tech.

I'd recommend an Industrial Age tech next if possible and in a resonable time frame otherwise Free Aristray for further tech-whoring.

	30-10-2002 21:46									#3
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IMHO it is a waste. I don't see any point in raising the sci slider even further in order to start researching the next tech earlier because by the time we finish researching Democracy, the other major powers will already have most of the next techs in the tree and then it'll be cheaper to buy the next techs than to research them.
That, unless we research Free Artistry first for its techwhoring potential, but if we want to build Shakespeare's Theater we'll have to delay whoring Free Artistry to give us a headstart.

	30-10-2002 21:46									#4
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Just a correction, we got the GA in 800AD, not 790AD (we were SO disappointed, the one Swordsman was in unroaded Jungle and we had to wait for him to move to attack him). So we have 18 turns (including 820) of the GA left.

I did try to have MrWIA stop the turnchat in 810, so that we could debate this issue and try to take full advantage of the GA's benifits.

E_T

	30-10-2002 21:57									#5
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Thanks. I corrected it and updated the top post.

	30-10-2002 22:16									#6
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Shiber, the delay in techwhoring Free Artistary after researching is acceptable. If we go at 50% reserach for Democracy now and then 50% for Free Artistary by that time FA is researched, the AIs will have finished reseraching the last required Middage Age techs for us so we can start researching an industrial one without missing a beat.

A Golden Age is also for fast science research.

The main questions I have is for the Economic Minister to check to see if placing this much in science would post pone the long list of improvements needing to be built quickly. (But perhaps that list could be trimmed down as well with the FP so close to completlion)

	30-10-2002 23:40									#7
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I'm in strong support of a 50% science rating. At this setting we still would make 231gpt and we'd get technology at a respectable rate. Democracy would arrive in 10 turns.

We can now become self-sufficient in our research, keep up with the other nations of the world and stop paying them hundreds of gold to research for us. We can even start making money by selling our own techs.

No reason for only a 30% science rate. Let's take advantage of our Golden Age's research boost to get ahead in another tech after we get Democracy.

--Togas

	31-10-2002 00:04									#8
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Keep in mind that using the GA to increase science output comes at the expense of using it to increase economic output. A science rate of 50% will seriously limit our economy. Our empire is fast growing but we must make sure that our income is growing accordingly to support the need for additional courthouses AND libraries.

	31-10-2002 00:14									#9
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With the FP only 12 turns from completion, the need for Court Houses is a lot less than it would be otherwise.

A 231 Gold Per Turn surplus is plenty to rush build Libaries over the next 10 turns.

	31-10-2002 00:15									#10
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I support increasing our science all we can do as long as it doesn't hurt long term growth.

	31-10-2002 00:35									#11
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Maybe we could find a settlement. How about setting the science slider to 30% or 40% but building and rushing lots of libraries to compensate? The builders will be happy, the researchers will be happy and the culture freaks will be happy (we're all on bannanabis today).

	31-10-2002 01:25									#12
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- A compromise won't be too hard to reach- after all, sceince is ultimately tied to commerece output- courthouses benefit science as well as income. In the long run, Techs boost our economy- it would be great if we get a headstart on industrial techs, both in terms of saving money buying it, whoring it around, and getting the boost from the available improvements.
I support raising the slider to 40%, this would reflect our situation best- we are deep into infrastrcutual development, and need dough badly and we are on the 1st row on science. This, coupled with no immediate threat that requirs unit upgrades and war production, and a GA is a great time to show the world that our scientist enjoy the government's support.

	31-10-2002 01:40									#13
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Myself, I was going to propose 50% + switching the following builds from Court House to Market Place and rushing them when the Forbiden Palace is one turn away from compeltion:

Antioch
Ghengistown
Wilsbury
Bacteria
Susa

and switching Taurus to Libary and rushing that as part of a flip off Oxford.

This may result in similar money & science post Forbiden Palace to 40% science + libaries in all those cities plan.

I do note that 40% research currently only delays Democracy two turns and would give us Democracy the same turn that the Forbiden Palace is complete so we would have an accurate estimate of the time it takes to reserach FA.

Perhaps there could be an unoffical poll on the science slider?

(Edit: Muncie removed from the list : It has a Market Place already. Arbula removed, already has several culutral improvements.)

Last edited by joncnunn on 31-10-2002 at 21:19

	31-10-2002 02:09									#14
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We don't need a settlement. Is there someone out there who can give me a compelling reason why we can't get by on 231gpt?? We've never had an income that high in our history. What ever happened to just letting our cities build structures and units? Why does everything have to be rushed at 4x the cost?

Yes, I know that after the GA things will change, we can reconsider if we need to get more tax income, but once our corruption is gone due to the FP being built, I feel we can let our corruption-reduced cities actually build things and rush build a whole lot less of our structures.

I'm exhausted from having to always beg and bribe other civs for their knowledge. We're constantly giving away hundreds of gold to our neighbors. I'd like to see our nation become a tech leader and start becoming the one that sells the tech. We've already made the Lost Civs reliant upon us for tech and bankrupted them in the process. With a Tech advantage we can begin to do the same to our neighbors.

--Togas

	31-10-2002 02:35									#15
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Togas... yeah, I can argue why getting by on 231 would be hard.

We've scraped by the skin of our teeth the last couple of turn chats in order to both develop the nation and the military; with 231 a turn it would not be possible; it was mainly possible because of the huge deals you provided us with.

I'll support something as low as 231, but this of course requires that these huge per/turn deals with other civs remain; without them it is out of the question. I'll have to look into it more.

	31-10-2002 02:52									#16
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I'm a radical sort of guy, and when you elected me, you were generally asking for it. I agree with Togas. We have no shortage of change here folks. Let's go all out on this researching.

On the other hand, if people like Shiber's and joncunn's propositions, I'll support them. They're fine plans.

So, I would like to request input from the mighty minister who makes the big decisions on production: If raised to 50%, how much would that foul up production of income improvements?

Once we know this, we can actually calculate which plan: Shiber Classic, New Shiber, Joncnunn, Zeit, or Togas; will net us democracy and some random industrial tech (for long term feasibility testing purposes) the fastest.

If it will significantly affect building, 50% may not be the answer here. It might not be worth it to grab democracy a turn earlier.

	31-10-2002 03:24									#17
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Thud, with almost all of these plans, our best thing to research will be FA next because the AIs will be too far along the last Middage Age techs to reserach.

We should be able to trade FA for Theory of Gravity and/or Nationalism though. Other those set of plans and the real difference between these set is when we start reseraching the second industrial tech.

(Exception: Shiber Classic, there's a good chance that an AI would have Theory of Gravity within 18 turns.)

(I'm assuming that New Shiber is 40%)

	31-10-2002 03:28									#18
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Agreed, I'm a fan of anything we can research before the AI at this point, and FA is it.

	31-10-2002 03:54									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Reddawg We've scraped by the skin of our teeth the last couple of turn chats in order to both develop the nation and the military; with 231 a turn it would not be possible; it was mainly possible because of the huge deals you provided us with.

231gpt would NOT BE POSSIBLE?! My god, people. We're freakin' spoiled rotten if we feel that we can't get by with that kind of a windfall.

Curb the rampant rushing. Stop upgrading troops, the war with France is pretty much over. I've bought every tech there is to buy, so I don't need the cash.

The Foreign Ministry is bringing in 150gpt to the coffers of the nation and I'd like to see that money put towards a serious commitment to science and research.

--Togas

	31-10-2002 05:02									#20
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I support raising the science slider to the maximum so we can techwhore. It's quite lucrative, if 2 civs buy at full price, we almost get it free. The mathematics of this are at:http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=65614. We can rush build our hearts out until we can buy another tech (ASAP), then we max out the science slider again for a successor tech. After we sell that, we may be able to put the science slider near 100%, get the next tech, sell it, and with our slider at 100%, still have enough left over to rush build.

	31-10-2002 05:28									#21
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Techs as quickly as possible, quit the stupid rampant rushbuilding. Be PATIENT and wait for the thing to build. Once we get FP and palace built, corruption will be much less and we can even research faster!!

	31-10-2002 06:02									#22
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I haven't been around for a little while, but felt compelled to add my 2 bits to this debate:

MAX IT OUT!
While I disagreed with the war, we have to take full advantage of this resulting GA. It lasts for the blink of an eye, game time. Screw the treasury - it can recover afterwards. Screw rush building - we hardly need it during a GA, and with the FP coming. I don't know how high we can push it, but I feel the rate should be pushed as high as it can go without losing money.

	31-10-2002 07:24									#23
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I have seen a lot of commenting on the cost of rushbuilding and what has been rush built.

The only things that I have spent large sums of money on have been on Rush building 2 things: 1) Courthouses to help with our current (and present for AT LEAST 12 more turns, see my FP update report) Rampant Corruption & Waste. 2) Special Project Rushes like the FP Prebuilds, Flip 'em off & Arbela. I don't like having to spend that much money, at least on one SINGLE thing at a time, I'd rather use it to faststep our whole nation by having throughput rushes, but I can't until the corruption issues are fully addressed.

We have 5 Libraries that will be coming online shortly, and we have about 12 more that will be completed either before the end of the GA or right afterwards. We might even have a few Universities started by the end of the GA. We might also have some Banks started too. I have currently 13 more Courthouses to rush (1 might actually get built on it's own) in cities that have a very high to almost catastriphic Corrution in them. With these online, our Income (and science, overall trade) will increase by a good sum. Even if some of them only come online shortly before the FP does, they will still have quite a contribution to our economy as a whole (especially with the extra trade from the GA).

With the increased production outputs in the cities that are currently (and soon to be) building Libraries, it wouldn't really be cost effective to rush then (even as a throughput rush). The more trade (and my city production, too) that I can get for us, especially during the GA, the better that we can do. If a city is at 95% corruption, it's still only going to produce 1 trade (or sheild) until that corruption is addressed in some way, shape or form. If you compare my recent budget request (820AD) to the last one, you can see where some of the items have been effected by the GA (the reduction of cost per turn figures) and where some of them haven't.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for moving the slider. And if it still means that my needed Rushes take a bit longer, I don't mind.

When I was elected to this office, the MoE was practically screaming for these courthouses and I've gotten (and am getting them) to him in the best manner that I can. The MoPW was wanting a large workerforce increase. THe SMC was building up towards our current war. The country was in an awful shape, with Rampiant Corruption. We had Cities that were too big compaired to the ability to keep them happy while being Pyramid fed to higher population problems and on the edge of disorder if we lost even 1 Luxury (which did happen). We had practially NO Science Capability and some income enhancing Improvements. I've taken care of a lot of these problems and still have a lot more to do. I've also almost doubled our native Worker force and increased our Military readiness, too. This, all in total, have been no small tasks to complete.

I'm working on an update to my Corruption & Waste Report that I had origially published on taking office in 700AD. It will include our newest cities and I'll even have a chart (if I have time) to show what the figures will be with the whole of the Current French Provences included. I might even get to completeing the Palace/FP centric version before I have to compile my next orders for the turnchat.

E_T

Last edited by E_T on 31-10-2002 at 13:47

	31-10-2002 08:06									#24
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Now for some quick figures:

0% - 36 Turns; 552LPT
10% - 36 Turns; 489LPT
20% - 25 Turns; 430LPT
30% - 16 Turns; 362LPT
40% - 12 Turns; 304LPT
50% - 10 Turns; 231LPT
60% - 8 Turns; 178LPT
70% - 7 Turns; 118LPT
80% - 6 Turns; 54LPT
90% - 6 Turns; -9LPT
100% - 5 Turns; -67LPT

What I do in my personal games is set the slider to the number of turns that I want to research a Tech. As each turn progresses (and possibly different Science Improvements come online), I check each turn to see if I can reduce the science output, without decreasing my overall research time. Sometimes, it isn't until the last 1 to 3 turns of research that I can do this, but it gives me more money to spend towards the end of researching that tech.

I would say 40 to 50%. 40% for the extra income while the war is still being waged and some money to still rush some things. This will also have the added timing of being complete at the same time as the FP, and the next tech would fully benifit from the newly constructed FP from the start. Also, while we are in the GA, each Library that does come online, will act like having both it AND a University built at once (during normal times, that is).

E_T

	31-10-2002 08:31									#25
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Well said, E_T. I too am for moving the slider, but not before it's time. And we are rapidly approaching the time. But not quite yet.

What I really cannot understand is why so many citizens want to put at risk the absolutely beautiful buildup this nation has made over the last several turnchats.

Let me state the problem bluntly.

We still have two count'em two research engine AI Civs on the current tech. Namely Germany and Greece.

We still have two count'em two commerce engine AI Civs on the current tech. Namely Rome and England.

Under these circumstances it will be exceedingly difficult, to out research the AI's on Emperor level. Right now in our GA we come close. And until we can 4 turn the tech slider (do a tech in 4 turns) without benefit of GA it is counterproductive to try. We are better off to buy, trade, deal, etc as required to stay current or atleast close to it.

I know that the peacenick fringe will go ballistic on this, but we still need to reach out and touch (whack) atleast one of the research engine Civs. I really don't want more land, I just want to clinch the game by sacking Berlin and Athens.

Berlin and Athens are the key, for London and Rome need research engines to deal with. Once Berlin and Athens are history, we will be the research engine.

roadcage

Remeber folks, the best way to out produce and out research your opposition is to forcibly downsize them. Einstein was right. Everything is relative.

	31-10-2002 21:06									#26
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We are big enough of a reserach engine to currently reserach Democracy + Free Artistray faster than the AI does, if we reserach at a fast enough pace.

(Ideally 50%, with most Court Houses builds [see my earler post] near the FP switched to Market Places & rushed the turn before FP is built to boost income)

Shiber's new Plan of 40% with most Court Houses builds near the FP switched to Libaries & rushed is a close second.

After that round of rushes, except for new cities needing Temple, flip off operations, and (perhaps prep builds for the new palace) rush builds should be ceased so more money could go towards science.

	31-10-2002 21:47									#27
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Sorry joncnunn, but while we are big enough in city count and pop, we have so few libraries and universities that we still cannot keep up. But do not dispair! If we sink our resources in infrastructure for about another 2 turnchats or so we will be.

If the cities in the Contaginon orbit have Marketplaces and Libraries in place with Banks and Universities in queue when the FP completes, we will be ready.

Thanks to Aggie, we have the land.
Thanks to Togas, we have the tech (and the cash).
So please let E_T get the infrastructure in place before we touch the slider. It's only going to be about another dozen turns or so.

	31-10-2002 21:53									#28
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We probably will be better of scientifically in the long run if we devote our resources to infrastructure (courthouses, libraries, and universities directly, and markets and banks indirectly). We’ll get more bang for our buck if we spend on science after we build these structures.
Also we should look into trying to build banks so that we can get Wall Street, that 50lpt a turn would be a real nice boost, and the sooner the better.

	31-10-2002 22:31									#29
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The only major Expenditures prior to the FP competion will be the courthouses. I'll try to get some other things Troughput rushed to help quickstep them, but they will be after the courthouses.

We also have to work on the New Cities somewhat. We will be combining two cities (I'm making my orders with that in mind) and moving two more. I hope to get this done before 900AD.

I was working late on my new Corruption Statistics for 820 and beyond and I can see that the FP build will be effected by about 1 to 2 turns. I'll have it posted soon, keep an eye out for it.

[EDIT] 40% will be fine by me, and tweek it down if it will allow us more money ar the same expected research competeion time. This still gives us a bit more money for some things.

E_T

	31-10-2002 22:39									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Randolph We probably will be better of scientifically in the long run if we devote our resources to infrastructure (courthouses, libraries, and universities directly, and markets and banks indirectly). We’ll get more bang for our buck if we spend on science after we build these structures. Also we should look into trying to build banks so that we can get Wall Street, that 50lpt a turn would be a real nice boost, and the sooner the better.

You need to check out the 820AD city status report for what we have currently planned. I also have plans to add some More Markets, 2 Banks, 2 Universities and changing a place holder to Bank. Hopefully, After Contagion has buildt an FP and Library, it can start on Wall Street.

E_T