31-10-2002 02:01									#1
	Jungle preservation Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I know we are still a long way to go, but i figured we must keep some of our ancient jungle in place, at least for the tourisits to see from what early tough condition we have grown to such a glorious empire, and for the ecological value of. I thought the following site would be the best- it's close to our capital, and to the future site of the palace, and it's some of the most ancient jungle sites we have left, since our early days of expansion (i wasn't here, but i assumed this was so, please correct me if i'm wrong).

What do you think:

Attachment: reservation.jpg
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	31-10-2002 02:09									#2
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Why do you care about the jungle? Are you a doctor that will make money off of desperate people with malaria?

	31-10-2002 02:17									#3
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Cool idea, zeit. I once played a game where, after hacking my way out of a horrendous jungle start, I arbitrarily decided that my warrior/priests (I was Aztec) had learned dark secrets and skills in the "Heart of Darkness" and that, from that point on, I would leave a patch of jungle precisely one-tile big within the radius of my core cities, where I made military units.

We don't need to try anything so radical here, but it does seem to me we could establish a heritage preserve, sending future generations of school kids on field trips to learn where their ancestors came from.

After all, one tile of minimal productivity shouldn't hurt us too much, particularly once we've relocated our capital.

	31-10-2002 02:18									#4
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Panzer- This is part of our heritage, the jungle is where our ancestors were made tough and resilient, the lessons that we have learned in the jungles have past us through history's challenges, and brought to where we are now. We can't allow it completely disappear.

Who's with me?

	31-10-2002 02:22									#5
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Very bad location: Your zone contains the W-NW and W-SW squares of Banana HQ. Looking at the terriagn, these squares would ideally be the 10th and 11th tiles worked by that city once they are cleared and mined even if no shield is underneith. So those tiles are needed even before we build a Hospital.

The square just NE of Gotham is also a bad location because evenually we need to work that tile as well. (Post Hospital.) The hospital doesn't give immunity to plagues from jungle so to protect our citizens health we will evenually have to clear (and mine) it.

For the record, the only areas I'm in favor of Jungle Persevation are those jungle tiles outside all cities City Radius.

	31-10-2002 02:23									#6
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Robert- even 4 tiles won't hurt our economy that badly- we are the richest, largest and most powerful civ in the world- we dont have to worry about a few jungle tiles around our cities. Just step out of the mere Civ3 game modeling and imagine how you see Apolytonia in the future- as a nation that remembers it's past and faces the future, or as a nation that denies it's heritage and blindly destroying natural treasures?

	31-10-2002 02:28									#7
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We hardly have any jungle tiles outside any city radius, and those are far of and won't have hold a strong cultural value as these central jungle tiles- as those who played from the beginng probably realize. These few jungle tiles can't really hurt us- and the entire area around them was cleared mined/irrigated, so my ponit is that it is a highly developed zone that doesn't really need those few extra grass tiles, and we'll have plenty more once we clear that huge jungle.

	31-10-2002 02:30									#8
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Zeit, that one tile north of your red circle (3-NW Banana HQ / N-2NE Gothem / 2 E-SE Timeline) is outside all City Raidus and is therefore qualifies as a jungle tile square that can be preserved.

	31-10-2002 02:32									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Banana HQ is a costal city and therefore will need the extra shields that clearing the two jungle tiles + mining will provide it.

	31-10-2002 02:32									#10
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Joncunn- I don't mind any other central location- having the preserve move one tile north is fine, but i think that only one tile won't do our ancient jungle justice.

	31-10-2002 02:37									#11
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- Joncunn- on the contrary, BHQ have one mountain tile being mined right now- most of our central cities don't have any shield producing tiles beside grassland+shield, which are not plentiful, so, it's position as coastal city doesn't reduce it's production compared to other cities around it.

	31-10-2002 02:40									#12
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While I'm not a greedy dirty pollutionist, I want those tiles cleared!!!
However I think it'd be great to preserve some jungle, but only at some location within our border but outside of any city radius. That way we lose nothing.

	31-10-2002 02:46									#13
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Guys, the whole point of natural preserves is that we DO lose something, but we earn something else- right- we hold progress and industrial evolution, but we earn a cultural and natural asset, that was my point here- In our current state- we can afford to lose those tiles, creating a "Jungle park" next to our cities, were both foreign and domestic tourists can enjoy a different experience from their everyday labor in their bustling and developed industrial cities.

	31-10-2002 03:18									#14
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I may not be around to advocate for it, but this has my full, undying support. Preserve the Jungle so that our children will remember.

	31-10-2002 03:28									#15
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Slash and burn baby. BURN!!!!

(OK, I support the idea in principal, but think other areas may be better. Not touching any city, and preferably outside any city radious).

	31-10-2002 03:32									#16
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I'm one of those radical conservationists. I personally am not a big fan of this particular site, though. Something more westerly, or even easterly. Near the old Persian or French borders. But immeadiatly next to a potential metropolis? Tis a little unrealistic.

Aside from all of that, its also a little small. whatever.

	31-10-2002 05:04									#17
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Where did this discussion come from?

We already have 5 jungle tiles preserved in 3 National Parks, and the Parks have names so why do we need more jungle preserves?

	31-10-2002 05:49									#18
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We'll need to keep some jungle for when rubber turns up. Where the old persian border was might be the best palce.

And we 'll have plant some jungle on Uber Isle. Our citizens their have never seen the towering trees rising out of the dense undergrowth in the early morning mist. Never experienced the dozens of diseases and poisonous animals that infest the place. Never had to weld a machette in uneneding centuries long backbreaking labour. Its turning into an island of wimps.

	31-10-2002 06:09									#19
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Slash and burn baby. BURN!!!! (OK, I support the idea in principal, but think other areas may be better. Not touching any city, and preferably outside any city radious).

Ditto....

E_T

	31-10-2002 06:15									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Vitreous Humor We'll need to keep some jungle for when rubber turns up.

No need for that. Even cleared jungle tiles can generate rubber.

quote: And we 'll have plant some jungle on Uber Isle. Our citizens their have never seen the towering trees rising out of the dense undergrowth in the early morning mist. Never experienced the dozens of diseases and poisonous animals that infest the place. Never had to weld a machette in uneneding centuries long backbreaking labour. Its turning into an island of wimps.

Exactly.

	31-10-2002 09:22									#21
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If we save jungle tiles THE ONLY reason is because we want jungle. It has NOTHING to do with resources. All our jungle tiles had strategic resources assigned to them at the beginnning of the game and will have them EVEN if the tile has been cleared.

	01-11-2002 04:44									#22
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Zeit, you've got too much time on your hands.

	01-11-2002 20:30									#23
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-Hardly so, realpolitic-
I started studying Biology and Psychology at the University two weeks ago, and my hands are full- but i find time for those important things...

What made me think about this issue are Ecology classes, the great importance in preserving ecosystems, for many different reasons. The most important principal in ecology, contrary to what people think of "tree hugging" ecologists is that things that are ecologicaly "bad" are those that hurt men, and vice versa. More People today realizes the great benefits of different eco-systems all over the world- and work harder to keep those systems alive. In our game, preserving the jungles is a disdavantage- which is unlike the real world, since the game is not that sophisticated. I thought this jungle is worth preserving, since it holds that cultural value to us players, but if that is not the way most people see it, and view the jungle as an enemy- than as Ghengis puts it: "burn jungle, burn!".

	01-11-2002 23:08									#24
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Zeit, it's still the late Middle Ages in the game. Nobody will know anything about Ecology for centuries.

Our people don't even know the real reason that those wondering into jungles die yet and are instead saying "it was just Bananas will" that those who work too long in jungles die.

	02-11-2002 01:53									#25
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There is no bad consequence for clearing the jungle in the game, is there? I believe the answer is no, therefore I am supporting the destruction of the jungle. Perhaps if there was a good reason for conservation, I would think about it more (possibly and idea for Civ 4 ?)

	02-11-2002 02:54									#26
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I believe that we should at least strive to save what jungle we can that is outside our glorious cities radii.

Our Forefathers trials must not be forgotten.

Controlled Burning