31-10-2002 20:09									#2
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And here are the PBEM rules version 2.0

Attachment: pbem rules 2.zip
This has been downloaded 69 time(s).

	31-10-2002 21:21									#3
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Good work Keygen! A little opinionated sometimes to be called "rules", (with phrases like "the boring beginning" -- some of us think that the beginning is THE most crucial part of the game!! ). But it looks like it will be real helpful for players.

	31-10-2002 21:22									#4
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How can a moderator see if any of those cheats is used ?

	31-10-2002 22:24									#5
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quote: Originally posted by quinns Good work Keygen! A little opinionated sometimes to be called "rules", (with phrases like "the boring beginning" -- some of us think that the beginning is THE most crucial part of the game!! ). But it looks like it will be real helpful for players.

Personal opinion was unavoidable but don't forget that it comes from a long experience
Everybody's opinion though is very important and I strongly encourage to express it here.
If a rule is proved to be oftenly excluded in the games that will use the PBEM rules version 2.0 will not be included in the next release.
If a new rule is proposed and is good it will be included in the next release as well.

As for the boring beginning and the rest, it is indeed very important as the rest of the game but waiting for the first 1-2 warriors and a settler to be built and move theme around a bit are easy to be done but having to wait a couple of weeks for that can be boring
The mod eliminates that.
Besides that is in the recommendation section and not the rules

Thanks for your comment Quinns

	31-10-2002 22:29									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Maestro How can a moderator see if any of those cheats is used ?

I think it can work with private or public accusations as long as the moderator keeps the past 20-30 turns or so otherwise he will have to study every single turn he receives and compare it with previous ones, a task that is practically inapplicable. Some cheats might be improssible to be tracked but then again we can do nothing about it.

	01-11-2002 19:55									#7
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Any first opinion?

	01-11-2002 23:57									#8
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It seems to cover every single angle... but I don't think the punishment for being found guilty of cheating is enough. It should be perma ban from all CtP PBEM games and competitions.

Also, I believe that "Buddying Up", which has been used in other TBS PBEM games, is a good idea. Basically it is: Two people buddy up. If someone is away, he should send a notice to his buddy, and the threads of games he is absent in. Then all turns go to his buddy while he is away.

This would eliminate the need to spend ages looking for a Temp Sub.

	02-11-2002 00:34									#9
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Good work, Keygen. Will you adapt it for CIVIII at some point?

I do have some questions/remarks. These are:

I prefer the Email notification instead of posting in the thread. Posting in the thread means that you have to go to Apolyton which takes more time than sending an e-mail. The same is true for the players. Deleting an e-mail takes less than 1 second. Going to a thread to check upon the status takes much more time (and I have cable, this is even more important for our friends with a dial-up connection)

Regarding the 24 hour rule:
1. IMO people should be allowed to be away for a weekend or for a couple of days. Of course they should notify the moderator and ask permission from the other players.

2. How realistic is the 24 hour rule? IMO we should strictly adhere to it but I notice that many moderators (if not all) are not that strict. I do not do it either because I doubt whether strict adherence to this rule would be really appreciated. But if we define the rule as is, we really should all DO it. It will certainly take down game time needed. If not (as now), let us define another rule.

Players nexted:
I don't think the moderator should be asked to really play the turn. It may get rather time consuming, he may know the position of the opponent etc. Just open the game and hit end.

Reporting rated games:
IMO this should be done by the creator not the moderator. If things go well the moderator does not need to look at a game for many turns (did never happen to me, though ). That's good. Reporting the status would force him to keep track of the game even if things go well. Also the creator will be much more interested in the game status and therefore it is easy for him to make the ten turn report.

Frans

	02-11-2002 02:21									#10
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quote: Originally posted by redbull It seems to cover every single angle... but I don't think the punishment for being found guilty of cheating is enough. It should be perma ban from all CtP PBEM games and competitions.

I agree with you but the PBEM Rules are for use in the games and not universally. I want to avoid any rule that will apply to the entire community for now. Let's see how the PBEM Rules fit here and then we shall discuss if we need community rules as well. Besides if I catch a cheater here I will probably make it a public event

quote: Originally posted by redbull Also, I believe that "Buddying Up", which has been used in other TBS PBEM games, is a good idea. Basically it is: Two people buddy up. If someone is away, he should send a notice to his buddy, and the threads of games he is absent in. Then all turns go to his buddy while he is away. This would eliminate the need to spend ages looking for a Temp Sub.

That's the idea
Plus if someone disappears for a couple of weeks he can be substituted with no pain.

	02-11-2002 03:23									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Franses Good work, Keygen. Will you adapt it for CIVIII at some point?

For sure! If they have some sort of success here of cource.

quote: Originally posted by Franses I do have some questions/remarks. These are:

Good

quote: Originally posted by Franses I prefer the Email notification instead of posting in the thread. Posting in the thread means that you have to go to Apolyton which takes more time than sending an e-mail. The same is true for the players. Deleting an e-mail takes less than 1 second. Going to a thread to check upon the status takes much more time (and I have cable, this is even more important for our friends with a dial-up connection)

I think many players would prefer that. If their time is quite limited and the connection slow or if the games are too many then they can simply send an email only. I do refer that within the rules anyway. However it can have its negative points like a) someone that might not receive the email or is having temporary email problems might not be able to figure out what is going on, b) people that prefer that method will most likely visit the forum less often, c) the threads will slowly fade away and d) people that play in many games will be forced to receive dozens of more emails in their mailbox.

For those that do prefer that method I propose something between. Send email but post in the threads as well periodically.

Personaly I always send an email notification and when I am not very busy I post in the threads as well.

quote: Originally posted by Franses Regarding the 24 hour rule: 1. IMO people should be allowed to be away for a weekend or for a couple of days. Of course they should notify the moderator and ask permission from the other players. 2. How realistic is the 24 hour rule? IMO we should strictly adhere to it but I notice that many moderators (if not all) are not that strict. I do not do it either because I doubt whether strict adherence to this rule would be really appreciated. But if we define the rule as is, we really should all DO it. It will certainly take down game time needed. If not (as now), let us define another rule.

1. The player can have a couple of days if he notifies the moderator or if not any the rest of the players. It is in the rules. If you want my opinion if the game doesn't suffer from delays and is pretty fast then even more days can be given if done only a few times. Under such ideal conditions some rules can be a bit elastic once in a while. We are not robots or the gestapo here

2. I beleive that it is very hard to enforce this rule but if we remove it or extend it in more days then things will get worse. I do agree with you but in busy days, we the moderators can't ensure 100% enforcement of this rule. Generally if a moderator persistently fails to do his job correctly he should be replaced. It has been done in the past and can be done in the future

However we can all be as consistent as possible and I agree with that but the only person here that I've never seen failing in his typical community obligations is Paul so far.

quote: Originally posted by Franses Players nexted: I don't think the moderator should be asked to really play the turn. It may get rather time consuming, he may know the position of the opponent etc. Just open the game and hit end.

That is because you've never seen a game been changed hands and been nexted in between from the inner probably The last who will take over will have a damaged from neglect civ!
That was one of the fundamendal reasons for the first appearance of the whole moderator idea.
At list the moderator can do some basic moves and deliver it in a little better situation. Not to mention what can be saved in a critical situation which is not something completely rare.
I expect that moderators are as much objective as possible. He will work for the benefit of the civ but will not take advantage of his possible knowledge of an opponent. He doesn't have something to gain anyway.

quote: Originally posted by Franses Reporting rated games: IMO this should be done by the creator not the moderator. If things go well the moderator does not need to look at a game for many turns (did never happen to me, though ). That's good. Reporting the status would force him to keep track of the game even if things go well. Also the creator will be much more interested in the game status and therefore it is easy for him to make the ten turn report. Frans

I do refer in the rules that the reporting of the ratings can be done from a player, either the creator if he plays in the game (I have created lot of games that I do not play in ) or even better the player who has the higher PG and is rated. He will surely not lose any chance to report the ratings
I personaly do not report the ratings in the games I moderate. They are quite many and don't have the time and will to calculate them and reporting them

	02-11-2002 03:30									#12
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Many thanks go to Redbull and Franses for their real helpfull commends and recommendation.

You have put some serious time and thinking here and I really appreciate it

	02-11-2002 03:53									#13
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No problem Keygen, anytime It's great to see the all the effort you put into CtP PBEM show for something.

	02-11-2002 03:54									#14
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Good work Keygen!

	02-11-2002 03:59									#15
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Another note:

If a player has been found cheating, and the moderator has called a council, I believe this should happen:

If a majority is found, then that decision goes. If it is even, then a re-vote will happen, with the moderator voting.

EDIT: I think the votes should go to the mod via PM, rather than on the thread, to keep the suspect from knowing, or having a vendetta against the people who voted against him/her

	02-11-2002 10:36									#16
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as i'm pressed for time with many games to play all i will say right now is good job keygen and ABOUT TIME LOL

	02-11-2002 22:46									#17
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quote: Originally posted by redbull No problem Keygen, anytime It's great to see the all the effort you put into CtP PBEM show for something.

Thanks for that

quote: Originally posted by redbull Another note: If a player has been found cheating, and the moderator has called a council, I believe this should happen: If a majority is found, then that decision goes. If it is even, then a re-vote will happen, with the moderator voting. EDIT: I think the votes should go to the mod via PM, rather than on the thread, to keep the suspect from knowing, or having a vendetta against the people who voted against him/her

I think if there is a draw in the voting result then the moderator should decide. No need for re-vote. Good point though, thanks for bringing this up

I guess the process of the voting will be decided from the players in the game when the time comes.
That is a detail, kind important though but a little extreme situation that someone will have a vendetta but who knows . It can be added as a comment in the next version. Thanks

	02-11-2002 22:48									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Kralj Matjaz Good work Keygen!

Lot of thanks Stojan

	02-11-2002 22:50									#19
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quote: Originally posted by MILAMBER as i'm pressed for time with many games to play all i will say right now is good job keygen and ABOUT TIME LOL

Thanks Milamber!

Yes, it was ABOUT TIME

	03-11-2002 03:34									#20
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LOLOL

	03-11-2002 15:23									#21
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A very good job(!) Keygen.

When a players needs to be nexted, I open the turn and scrooll all units though. Those who moves are allowed to do so.

Normally (If I remember to do so) I also assign cities with nothing in the buildqueqe to make gold or PW - depending on what I think is most needed/available.

Then I press n to end the turn.

	03-11-2002 16:49									#22
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Thanks a lot Max!

When I have to start building something in an empty city I always take a look at other cities of similar size to guess the habits of the player. If he's in war with someone I will probably put a military unit.

The most difficult decission is when you have to move units of great value like settlers or stacks of units.

Another good idea for the next version of the rules would be to add tips for moderating into the recommendations section.

Thanks Max, your comment was a good material for inspiration to me

	04-11-2002 01:58									#23
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I also tend to look at rioting cities.
Make sure they don't go into revolt.

	07-11-2002 07:14									#24
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Any other commend?

	07-11-2002 12:00									#25
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Well done Keygen

	04-03-2003 04:45									#26
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Great Job Keygen!

I think all new games should adopt these rules and guildlines. In fact it should be a mandatory page to read in Pbem and in a thread where people could post the comment:

I read the rules and agree to it's terms, guildlines and priciples.

	05-03-2003 20:18									#27
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ditto

	06-03-2003 19:36									#28
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Pete, 2F thanks

I am in the process of adopting the rules in all games I play and are not near ending, all the games I moderate and all new games I have started (Civilized World).

Pete, I would recommend you introduce and adopt if possible the rules in the games you moderate or play

	08-03-2003 04:39									#29
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I agree Keygen, Solver any way to standardize these rules into a main thread?

	08-03-2003 18:40									#30
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Let's see how it works out with all the HTML crap...