11-11-2002 12:32									#181
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As for Assassinations...

It has been discussed since this team was formed whether we should let members OTHER THAN THE SUPREME LEADER assasinate each other.

I think it should be possible, but exceedingly difficult not only to do, but quite impossible to get away with. Essentially, even if you succeed in assasinating another character, the Supreme Leader WILL find out about it and can decide whether to have you punished for it (a decision entirely up to the whim of the Supreme Leader while under Despotism).

I just would rather make it very difficult for people to successfully assasinate one another. Otherwise, it's likely to get out of hand. An excuse could be expense... that an assasin costs money and you can only afford so much at any given time... as such, you can only even ATTEMPT to assasinate one character every few weeks (perhaps even a month). Even then, the chances of success should be low. Furthermore, assasinating a minister or someone else who is selected as "close confidant" of the Supreme Leader should be a great deal more difficult to assasinate because he has the benefit of the Supreme Leader's protection (and thus SMART would-be assasins will shy away from the job, not to mention the additional security).

We could use some additional discussion on this issue.

	11-11-2002 12:33									#182
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We ask Markos to tell a figure between 1 & 6
More seriously, you could ask someone from outside the team a random number, without letting him know what it's about...

	11-11-2002 12:38									#183
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus How exactly would we organise a 'die-roll'?

Good question. We'd likely have to use someone willing to pledge on his honor that he's actually fairly rolling the results (using either a physical 'die' or a random number generator).

Such a role would obviously be entirely OUTSIDE the role-play elements of the game and would have to be entrusted to someone who would not cheat on his own character's behalf or that of other characters.

It's also possible to get one of those IRC chatroom bots that's a random number generator. Then you can at least 2 (or 3) people selected for this role meet together in IRC to "roll" the "die" and jointly observe the results - so that they can verify that the other one(s) aren't lying.

	11-11-2002 13:06									#184
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I'd prefer the second option, as there'd be no way to verify the results with the first.

	11-11-2002 15:17									#185
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Markos is now creating civ groups with team icons and names. His requirements are that we need:

1. A leader
2. An icon
3. A name

And that all three be STABLE through gamestart so he doesn't have to re-do the work.

We already have the leader part covered, it's Togas.

As for the rest, I move for the following:

1. That our icon be the elephant icon proposed by astrologix (if we are Carthage). We need an icon for if we are Spain. I'm not sure if Markos will go ahead and give us our civ group until we've gotten our icon FINALIZED, so perhaps this means we can't get it until we have our civ FINALIZED However, it may be possible to work something out with Markos on this???

2. That our "name", for Apolyton board purposes, be the "Role-Play Team". This removes confusion about why we exist and encourages those who would enjoy being on a team dedicated to internal role-play to join our team. By contrast, a team named "Carthage" on the Apolyton Boards would be attractive to the perhaps different set of people who would like to play the Carthaginian civilization (same goes if we're Spain).

-------------------

If we can finalize both our name and our icon, we get our civ group (after which should hopefully follow our private forum).

	11-11-2002 15:39									#186
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Using the $mini-game still seems a great idea to me. I know the Civ3DG $mini-game is quite complicated, but we could make a more simple version. Positive sides of the game are:

- People with more money and land become more powerful, like in real life
- Character roleplay will be better
- Lots more positive sides (just can't think of them right now )

	11-11-2002 15:52									#187
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The main problem with the mini-game isn't so much how complicated it is as how much its complexity makes it time-consuming and frightens away potential players.

	11-11-2002 16:06									#188
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Arnelos, i fully agree with you : mini-game

	11-11-2002 16:36									#189
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG as soon as each leader confirms the name of each team in this thread, i'll create the group i can live without having icons, but i'd like at least he name and leader to be finalized thanks

WOOHOO!!!



Togas, if you're cool with our name being "Role-Play Team" for Apolyton board and civ group purposes, please let MarkG know that ASAP

	11-11-2002 18:08									#190
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The Builders' Team has chosen Carthage as their first choice and Egypt as their second.

This means we have to rock-paper-scissors (or rock-papyrus-flint ) them for Carthage

I recommend that whoever (I'm guessing Togas) does the RPS decision(s) on our behalf use a random number generator so that our decision is impossible to second-guess.

We also need to find a neutral mediating party (who is NOT on another team - that wouldn't be neutral ) to receive the two choices via PMs and publicly post them and which one wins.

	11-11-2002 19:04									#191
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FYI, I'm working on an icon in the case of our civ would be the Spanish....

	11-11-2002 19:56									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos The Builders' Team has chosen Carthage as their first choice and Egypt as their second. This means we have to rock-paper-scissors (or rock-papyrus-flint ) them for Carthage I recommend that whoever (I'm guessing Togas) does the RPS decision(s) on our behalf use a random number generator so that our decision is impossible to second-guess. We also need to find a neutral mediating party (who is NOT on another team - that wouldn't be neutral ) to receive the two choices via PMs and publicly post them and which one wins.

Hey,

if anything, I would think I had proven my ability to be neutral...I would happily manage the RPS contest.

What happens if THREE teams choose Carthage, though?

	12-11-2002 00:34									#193
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I'm posting now, briefly, but I will return tonight to get some more work done. Today is a holiday and I'll be away from my computer.

I'll inform Markos that our official team name will be "The Roleplay Team"

I will act as our official leader.

Our symbol with either be the elephant or, perhaps, a Conquisador helmet ... but I've yet to test play Spain. I'd like to request that some of our active members try out Spain and post if you feel it would be a beneficial civ to play. Roleplay-wise, I love it. Game wise, we might get soundly beaten very quickly.

Aggie from the Demo game wrote me back. I was trying to convince him to join our team. He opted for the warmongers instead feeling that he's rather "for this first game just stick with an easy concept -- attack, attack, attack." I, for one, am hoping that our multiplayer game doesn't devolve into a big war game. I'm hoping we get the chance to act more civilizaed.

If Spain does not suit us, of if we feel too uneasy about playing it, I move that we play either Persia, Rome, Greece, in that order.

Jobs I intend to create during my long and glorious reign as Despot of our nation:

High Priest -- Advises on research, culture, etc. Looks out for the good of the nation, keeps us in favor of our deity (until we learn Poly and have to manage several deities). Excellent roleplay options.

Most Trusted Advisor (name may change) -- 2nd in command, most powerful person in the nation other than myself. His advise on any issue will be especially valued. He will take over management of the nation should I be occupied in a battle, away visiting the site of a new palace, or busy with one of my many wives. He will also advise me on matters of treason and recommend people to be killed. This position will be given to my most trusted and respected tribe member (ideally).

Cheif Warrior -- leader of our forces when I cannot personally lead them on the field of battle. I will also send him off to search the lands for new sites for cities for our nation. This job will go to our finest warrior family.

Governor -- EVERY city will be appointed a governor. The greatest city to the greatest noble.

Slave master -- will direct the movement of our workers and slaves.

Cheif Architect -- will oversee all construction in our nation and be able to overrule the governors about what projects to build. Will oversee the construction of Great Wonders and will build me the finest palace in the world.

Other jobs and titles may be given out as the need arises.


Other thoughts: I feel the mini-game, while fun, would be too complex for us to manage in addition to this game and or other game comittments. I would not object to it happening, but since I wouldn't have the time to really participate, I would rather we not do it.

As for players killing each other, it might get out of hand and might turn us against each other and make people less willing to play. I propose that only the Despot can be killed, however, he could kill seditioius or traitorous members who would then be unable to "coup" for a week. Once a "coup" poll is created, however, he cannot kill the one who founded the coup until it is resolved.

Will post more later.

--Togas

	12-11-2002 00:52									#194
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So it is written, so it is done.

	12-11-2002 00:58									#195
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How do we go about choosing individuals for these posts?

I'd like to suggest that instead of saying 'Most Trusted Advisor', we simply use 'Grand Vizier'.

	12-11-2002 01:01									#196
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On Assassination, what are the ways that the intended victim might avoid becoming murdered?

	12-11-2002 01:02									#197
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Now that I notice Togas' note on assassination, I am inclined to agree with him on it.

	12-11-2002 01:07									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Togas As for players killing each other, it might get out of hand and might turn us against each other and make people less willing to play. I propose that only the Despot can be killed, however, he could kill seditioius or traitorous members who would then be unable to "coup" for a week. Once a "coup" poll is created, however, he cannot kill the one who founded the coup until it is resolved.

As I posted in my comments on the issue, I agree about it likely getting out of hand. The rest of your wishes are right in line with my own (and what I suggested), so this is good by me

	12-11-2002 01:24									#199
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Oh, and Togas, I'm highly interested in the Trusted Advisor/Grand Vizier role.

Interestingly, the "Close Advisor/Grand Vizier" role would place its holder in the position of being forced by circumstance to be loyal to the supreme leader. This person would be actively working to help keep the supreme leader in power and if he sold out the supreme leader, everyone would know it and few would trust his family for at least some time afterwards... This basically prevents anyone who is wise from being the one to knock the supreme leader off from this position, due to their need to protect their family's honor. It would take a true Emperor Caligula in the supreme leader role to compel such a person to knock off the supreme leader.

I understand, therefore, that this is not a position to be taken lightly, as it basically means this person ties their fate to the supreme leader's... if the supreme leader goes down, the closest advisor almost certainly goes down with him (as the coup plotters likely won't want him that high in THEIR government)... yet you can't ascede to replace the supreme leader without him voluntarily stepping down... an interesting role

This, of course, would be an effective reason for hiring me for the job - to co-opt me

As President Lyndon Johnson said:

"It's better to have them inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in"

	12-11-2002 02:42									#200
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Arnelos, I don't think you are alone in wanting that coveted position...

	12-11-2002 04:02									#201
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UnOrthO: your sig says thanks to Aro for the avatar, did he make the skull one too?

Arnelos: Great LBJ quote,

Team: As far as the Bulders Team, can't there only be 4 teams? I wish not to put down the Builders, but as they have the least members, they might not make it. Also, Someone suggested both teams scrapping the contested civ (in this case Carthage) and each picking their backup. But I liked "Carthage that produces Carnage"...

	12-11-2002 08:06									#202
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

After that research I did on behalf of the Carthage choice, I'd be rather annoyed myself if we ended up w/o Carthage, but I'll live with it. (shrugs)

	12-11-2002 08:08									#203
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Arnelos-- Why's that? Is it certain religious peculiararities (i.e. the sacrifice of babies, my problem with Carthage)?

	12-11-2002 09:27									#204
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Our group has been made. As soon as we have our own forum, I'll let you all know and we can then begin discussing things in much more detail there.

I cleaned out my PM box, so you can now send me messages relating to this game and what position(s) you would like to serve in. Should my PM box become full in the future, you may email me. Just click on my profile and there should be an option to send me email.

--Togas

	12-11-2002 09:32									#205
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quote: Originally posted by History Guy How do we go about choosing individuals for these posts? I'd like to suggest that instead of saying 'Most Trusted Advisor', we simply use 'Grand Vizier'.

Posts are chosen by the Despot -- me. So if you want a particular job, better let me know.

"Grand Vizier" sounds too slavic. Doesn't seem to fit with our Civ choice. Can anyone come up with a better title? For now, my "second in command" will be referred to as my "most trusted advisor." Such person will be a key figure in our government, will manage everything whilst I am away or unavailable, and will always have the ear of the Despot.

--Togas

	12-11-2002 09:50									#206
	JOIN OUR TEAM Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

To all members who have not yet joined:

Please JOIN OUR TEAM. If you're in the Civ3-PTW Democracy Game forum, you'll see the teams in the top-middle of your screen. All you have to do is click on join. Then the rest is up to me.

I will regularly check an admin screen that MarkG has given me access to and confirm that you are a member.

Right now, I'm going to let pretty much anyone who has expressed an interest in joining join. But once we start, it will be more difficult to join.

--Togas

	12-11-2002 17:21									#207
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Good join policy Togas, we want as many members as possible to fully support instantaneous creation of ideas and fill in for missing people or people who quit half-game when it's obvious we will win.

	12-11-2002 22:02									#208
	Re: JOIN OUR TEAM Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Togas Right now, I'm going to let pretty much anyone who has expressed an interest in joining join. But once we start, it will be more difficult to join. --Togas

Thats when the sabateurs slip in

	12-11-2002 22:43									#209
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I hate to rehash this discussion, but for the sake of insanity... lets rehash this discussion

It has not been decided yet which team will get Carthage, but I have to ask: do we really want them? The only reason I ask this question is because I have reservations about how effectively we will be able to expand when we saddle ourselves with a unit that is, granted, a good unit but only if I close my eyes about to the cost of each.

The way I see it, REX will be crucial to our success for obvious reasons, and the Carthaginian UU's cost seems designed to slow us down. Remember: Carthage can't build spearman (which costs 20). The only choice you get is the numidian merc. (which costs 30 and which will defend us into far-to-early of a GA, IMHO, unless that is what we a specificly looking for )

Now, maybe I am over-analyzing this (and if so, please feel free to say so) but, with a little under 3 weeks left before the start) I think some consideration could still be done prior to when we begin.

	13-11-2002 01:43									#210
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I'll echo Ruby with my comments.

If we fail to get Carthage, I won't be too dissapointed. I like Carthage for roleplay purposes, and I think we're all prepared to play our parts in reinventing Carthage's history, but gameplaywise, the civ has yet to impress me. I need to try out a few more practice games with it.

Right now I'm playing Spain which trades Industrious for Religious and has a worse UU. My start was much more favorable and my rapid expansion netted me 4 luxuries off the bat even with Zulu and German neighbors. I've fared very well so far with the civ, but have yet to enter any major conflicts.

I like cheap temples, which quickly expands borders and makes me have to use less units to quell revolts.

When I played Carthage I had to send out warriors with the settlers to quell the population and then later send out or build Mercs, but more upkeep was required for each city's defense, culture, and stability.

Carthage has style and security. We won't get trampled if we play them, but at the same time, it does require more time to expand and support the cities.

Bottom line -- Carthage is an excellent builder civ, in my opinion. I'm happy with playing them, but I'll be fine if we lose them as well.

--Togas