01-11-2002 04:47									#1
	Stop B****ing about PTW Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Sheesh, seems like all I see is rant post..

if you people hated the bugs in the game so muhc this early, don't play it. If you wait and use your patiance skills, maybe Firaxis will fix it. But instead, you take up space making post that shot only negative comments at PTW.

the reason for them is partluy because of beta-testers who's own ignorance caused bugs not to be reported. if they were professional, they would have played all possible out-comes and gave feed-back soon after they found a problem. firaxis's minimal staffing really hurts their ability to make a game to fullest efficiancy, they have to pop out games to make a profite, not endulge a few rants.

also, the way firaxis is putting games out is a reflection of the people who buy them. they have to keep entrest high, and that reflects on their profit margines. like any good business men, they have to keep new products going, even if the product needs work, they will need the money it generates to improve it.

if they were not alwys at a rush to make a game and deliver it to retailers, maybe some of the bugs would be found.

maybe, you're just being a baby for the 5 minutes a crash takes out of your life, boo-hoo, what can you do?

i am sure I have pissed a few people off with this post, but seriously, stop B****ing about pTW and use those patiance skills.

	01-11-2002 04:51									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well, I skimmed your post, and let me see if I have this all straight...

You just basically tried to justify shipping "products" that are not functional.


Those are not ethics of good buisness men, those are the ethics of a rablle of half drunk ass begotten **** mongrels. There is no way this game should have ever been release in this condition... Because it doesnt work.

	01-11-2002 04:56									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hm, let me ask you a question...

Have you ever been in an industroy.... if you have, the amarkets for game is VERY competative. they sent it out so they could make small profites and use it to improve and make more, and so on.

it was the same with Civ3, and now they ahve made a lot of it and it had mnay errors. its all about patiance. they do it for a reaosn, not to spike the consumer.

you act like you it is extremly important to get eveyrhting right from no experiance with a new type of MP.

sheesh, just give them a break

	01-11-2002 04:56									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: if they were not alwys at a rush to make a game and deliver it to retailers, maybe some of the bugs would be found.

Wow, another good one. You know, they have a group of people called beta testers that try to fix these problems. This group iis overseen by the actual developers. Even if the beta testers were asleep at the job, which it seems like, then the real Developers would step in, and say... not release the game?

quote: maybe, you're just being a baby for the 5 minutes a crash takes out of your life, boo-hoo, what can you do?

Fool. 5 minutes + 50bucks. Plus the fact of buying it thinking that we could play online. I dont think anyone bought this game just for the improvments for 1player, they wanted to play online. Like the box says, and we were all lied to, because Firaxis does not support online gaming, as it seems.

	01-11-2002 05:00									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

hm, maybe ou should look at the responsibilites of beta-tester. the company is nto responsable for their mistakes, for limited staffing and TIME, i stress the word TIME, they do the best they can.

multiplayer is s***, i agree, but considering that they have not had much experiance in high dynamic games, they are doing the best they can.

sheesh, just play on LAN and TCP. playing on the world wide games is foolish considering the possible cheaters, make a friend, and play private games over lan and TCP networks.

and if you want to rant about the quality, email firaxis, not apolyton forums.

	01-11-2002 05:01									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The release of Civ3 and Civ3:PTW are in no way the same in any way at all.

Civ3 worked, to a great extent.
PTW does not work, to a great extent.

Extreme difference. Do you see it? Do you?

	01-11-2002 05:03									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: multiplayer is s***, i agree, but considering that they have not had much experiance in high dynamic games, they are doing the best they can.

I dont give two flying $hit$ about if they tried their best. This isn't an episode of Full House. This is an Industry... Have you ever been in an Industry?

You are only as good as your last product.

	01-11-2002 05:03									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

hm, how do you back that up, personaly experiance, did you buy civ3 the exact date it came out.

the complexities of multi-palyer on games like civ3 ptw are astounding considering programmers have to include lag, diual ups, time taken for host comp to realize commands, sheesh.

you act like eveyrhitng has to be squeky prefect on the first run. and gamespy supports multiplayer on ptw, sad but true.

	01-11-2002 05:10									#9
	Put an end to popups!

I did buy it no less than a week from whence Civ3 came out, and guess what... It played.

The main feature of Civ3 was to play the game, would you not agree? To start a game and play it through to the end. I was able to do just that when it came out, with no patches or anything.

Civ3:PTW's main feature was to play online. They provide you with a service to get playing, even. Like they want me to, I used it that service which they provide for me to play online. To play anyone, anywhere at any time, online, like the box says - Multiplayer. Thi feature, which is the main featue of PTW, does not work.

Which is the more successful release?

Civ3 - Worked as it was expected to upon release.
Civ3:PTW - Failed upon release.

	01-11-2002 05:17									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Strakorfsky, normally I'd agree with you, but Roman is right... the game just doesn't work.

	01-11-2002 05:32									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I see valid points from both sides of this argument.

Strakorfsky - You are right about the fact that there is enormous pressure put on designers to put a game out on time, not only from the public, but from the publisher who wants to get the game out so they can start making money. After all, it takes a sh*tload of coding to make a game this complex.

On the other hand, Roman is right in the fact that designers have no right to adsvertise popular functions of a game and then release the game with so many problems. It is just irresponsible and it jips consumers.

In the end, it is the job of the designer and publisher to deliver a game that meets the expectations that advertisements give us. But, instead of flaming the game and all the designers, maybe calm down and wait for some patches. Most buggy games end up fine. Don't assume you blew 50 bucks until it's certain.

	01-11-2002 05:34									#12
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Um, Trip, though I OBVIOUSLY don't have the game yet (no more than Strakorfsky does), having read a WIDE range of posts here, I have to side with him!! From what I understand PBEM, hotseat and LAN work perfectly fine and, though there are problems, the online MP does work, and some successful games have been played. Many of the problems with the online system, from my understanding, are the results of people playing MP using WAREZ-which should simply teach you guys to be vigilant. My point is that this makes PtW no different from the original Civ3 at the same stage of development! (Oh, I can still rember the numerous rants on how Civ3 was..."the worse game ever!!!", much of which has now died away completely!) Though I complain about it, the best part about living in Australia is that, by the time the game reaches us, the majority of the bugs and other problems have been ironed out-just like with civ3 . So my suggestion to Roman and Trip is: Move to Australia, the weathers great AND we get to see the results of ALL public beta tests

Yours,

The_Aussie_Lurker.

	01-11-2002 05:41									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: In the end, it is the job of the designer and publisher to deliver a game that meets the expectations that advertisements give us. But, instead of flaming the game and all the designers, maybe calm down and wait for some patches.

Yea, but they didn't deliver a game that met expectations, so lets flame on. Theres a simple code that goes with this. If the game isn't good, then flame it, simple enough?

	01-11-2002 05:56									#14
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I'm happy with the game so far. Probably because I've just done single player games and played LAN games against the rest of my floor. Internet games with random people aren't my thing.

	01-11-2002 06:06									#15
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker Um, Trip, though I OBVIOUSLY don't have the game yet (no more than Strakorfsky does), having read a WIDE range of posts here, I have to side with him!! From what I understand PBEM, hotseat and LAN work perfectly fine and, though there are problems, the online MP does work, and some successful games have been played. Many of the problems with the online system, from my understanding, are the results of people playing MP using WAREZ-which should simply teach you guys to be vigilant. My point is that this makes PtW no different from the original Civ3 at the same stage of development! (Oh, I can still rember the numerous rants on how Civ3 was..."the worse game ever!!!", much of which has now died away completely!) Though I complain about it, the best part about living in Australia is that, by the time the game reaches us, the majority of the bugs and other problems have been ironed out-just like with civ3 . So my suggestion to Roman and Trip is: Move to Australia, the weathers great AND we get to see the results of ALL public beta tests Yours, The_Aussie_Lurker.

When you have 8 games, all of which crash or freeze, none of which reach the actual game itself, then what?

	01-11-2002 06:10									#16
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by [FX]Roman Yea, but they didn't deliver a game that met expectations, so lets flame on. Theres a simple code that goes with this. If the game isn't good, then flame it, simple enough?

Not really. You see, Apolyton is the largest information source for Civ games. About 1/3 of the people who will or won't buy Civ3 PTW are affected by comments on this board directly (read the comments themselves) or indirectly (got a recomendation from someone who read all the flames).

So with the abilty that the Apolyton community has in encouraging or discouraging the buying of games, by flaming the games on the boards instead of in Firaxis's Tech support, you are lessening your chances on Patches and future expansions.

Even if my little guess on affected people is off (which I doubt it is too far from reality), Firaxis staff still reads this board, and after all the complaining done, there is no way Firaxis is going to give support for future support to a bunch of whiners.

I admit, that Firaxis is very much in the wrong (actually I would put more blame on Infogrames), but they have been one of the best companies about support. When you get a patch more than six months after a game is released you are dealing with one hell of a company.

Roman: Be patient, see what Firaxis does!

Strakorfsky: Maybe it is your English but you are not very good at persuasive speaking, and your ideas on Ethics and the Gaming Industry are a little coocoo.

Ausie Lurker: I wish

	01-11-2002 06:12									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Trip,

Then meet me at 9 in the lobby and I'll try to help you get it going.

There was one tester who never could get into Internet MP. We never figured out what it was about his system.

Let's hope you are not in the same boat.

	01-11-2002 06:20									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

wiseass, your opinion is respected, but making judgements based on a thread is very underlining of amoral bases.

in the future, keep your personal antaginism to yourself, people will respect you more

	01-11-2002 06:21									#19
	Put an end to popups!

Strak,

Until you have installed the game and come to the same conclusion that the vast majority of us have (that it is wholly un-playable and non-functional), I suggest you keep your little comments to yourself.

Man, now I know how I must have sounded back when I was defending Ultima Online. Except, in my mind, OSI had the excuse of trying something that had never been done before.

I can accept a buggy release. But, try to understand. . . it's not buggy, it's non-fuctional.

You can sit there and be all warm and fuzzy as much as you want. It's easy to be patient when you don't yet own the game. But, some of us were very excited to play it, hence our buying it early.

Now, normally, I'd say: "That's you're mistake for not having patience, buddy. Just live with the bugs until they improve it."

Hell, I bought Civ3 on the release date. When it sucked in Windows 2000 (because of the slow-scroll bug), I actually formatted my machine and put on Win98. I didn't complain, as long as I could get it to run. I quietly endured all the bugs, because the game ran, and was enjoyable.

But, here's the point. PTW is not just buggy. . . it's not just annoying. . . it **DOESN'T WORK**.

As for beta testers. We had a ton of 'em for Ultima Online. I was one of them. We reported the bugs. OSI acknowledged them, and then shipped the game anyways.

Sometimes, that's the way it works. It's a descpicable business practice that provides short-term financial gain. . . but it eventually cost OSI its reputation. If Firaxis keeps doing it, they won't be far behind.

So, uh, why don't you stop blowing sunshine up everyone's rears. When a company releases software in this state, they *deserve* to be lambasted. It's odd for me to hear myself saying that after so many years of being pro-developer, but this time it's that bad.

This isn't 1997 anymore. I remember when CivNet first came out and it was laggy, and crashed, and we all just gritted our teeth and beared it. But, this is 2002. Look at all the Multiplayer games that are out there now that find players, match them up, and go off without a hitch (AOE series, Warcraft III, all the FPS games).

Sheesh. . . I guess we're not allowed to voice any displeasure here over the shipping of a non-functional game without being called whiners.

As for "LAN, hotseat, and everything but internet play working fine so we should all just settle down". . . I have to believe that the vast majority of us bought this to play it over the internet. Please don't try to tell me that this wasn't its largest selling point.

As for Warez users. . . I've tried three different machines and tried to play with 10 different players (none of which admitted to using cracked copies. . . and I'm sure my brother wasn't). . . no go.

So, I don't think it's unfair to be a little pissed. You don't like it, don't read it.

H

	01-11-2002 06:29									#20
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Hurin Strak, Until you have installed the game and come to the same conclusion that the vast majority of us have (that it is wholly un-playable and non-functional), I suggest you keep your little comments to yourself. I can accept a buggy release. But, try to understand. . . it's not buggy, it's non-fuctional.

Huh

What was I playing a little while ago? Must have been my imagination.

	01-11-2002 06:30									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Strak,

Sorry that came off a little harsh I should have re read it. My comment was more so based on one of yours:

quote: the complexities of multi-palyer on games like civ3 ptw are astounding considering programmers have to include lag, diual ups, time taken for host comp to realize commands, sheesh.

That is what they get paid to do. Estimating that Firaxis sold a million copies of Civ3 (meaning that Firaxis saw at least 6-7 mil) minus about 2 million on game development that means that the profited probably at least 4 million. Firaxis is by no means a struggling company. They have a talented team, a few highly regarded franchises, and Sid Meier, they should be able to do it right the first time.

I can gaurantee that you will not hear one Firaxian say that "we wanted to do it right but that programming stuff is kinda tricky".

	01-11-2002 06:31									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Hurin But, here's the point. PTW is not just buggy. . . it's not just annoying. . . it **DOESN'T WORK**. ... Sheesh. . . I guess we're not allowed to voice any displeasure here over the shipping of a non-functional game without being called whiners. ... So, I don't think it's unfair to be a little pissed. You don't like it, don't read it.

Incorrect. You have not been able to make it work. I have. Every tester on the beta team save 1 was able to make it work.

You might be whining if you insist on flaming based on your initial impressions instead of trying to find out what it is about your set up and those of your opponents that is preventing you from playing.

Frustrated? I can understand that. However, you and others repeating over and over that it doesn't work, when in fact it does, or can be made to, is maybe frustrating for some of the users of this forum. It's also misleading to those who haven't tried yet.

	01-11-2002 06:37									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

NYE:

The first time I loaded up MP, it worked. Am I just lucky? I disabled firewall and norton. Found one person, and went to work.

didn't seem very complicated to me.

granted I was playing against one person and one person and 2 ai's in the two games.

I expected some kinks, anything on this scale I would expect kinks, and there were some: when certain people tried to join our game, they locked it up. but Monk and I had a somewhat enjoyuable game (would have been more fun, but I was alone on an island, nothing to do)

Have the people tried the ole turnbased mp? against one other?

	01-11-2002 06:44									#24
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Well atw, you did the right thing right off. You shut down the stuff that would have given you problems. You also didn't have anything else that messed things up. Lucky? A bit maybe, but most of the testers got it going without too much trouble. I needed some help at first, but some of the others helped me get going in about 10 minutes.

The unfortunate ones would be those who have something in the system that is not easy to detect or turn off. However, as more and more people get the game and get going we will get a better impression of what some of the bigger problem areas can be.

	01-11-2002 06:47									#25
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I dont have PTW yet and love the rant threads. They tell me what is wrong. Then some poeple come along and say good things. The ranters have as much a right to post as the people complimenting the game do.

I hope that Firaxis is watching and is planning to fix things in a patch. Rants help make games better beacause it tells the programmers what is wrong.

	01-11-2002 06:52									#26
	Suffering from ads?

True dat Sheik.

However, some of the rants are not entirely accurate descriptions of the facts and are not really helpful in any way beyond the 'fun' factor of Poly.

	01-11-2002 07:02									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

You can count on the programmers being here, I saw Mike B around earlier.

	01-11-2002 07:05									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Frustrated? I can understand that. However, you and others repeating over and over that it doesn't work, when in fact it does, or can be made to , is maybe frustrating for some of the users of this forum. It's also misleading to those who haven't tried yet.

I feel that I shouldn't have to go to the trouble of making it work. It should work.

Glad I haven't bought it yet.......

ACK!

	01-11-2002 07:06									#29
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Should it work on your old 486 running Win 3.11?

	01-11-2002 07:16									#30
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Hurin...

oh please, give me a break.

it doesnt work on MP smart one, not like the game crashes on single game or on lan. gosh, you must be one of those " know it alls"who think they are somehow smarter then everyone.

here is list of problkems voiced: constant crashigns on mp, unable to see gamelist on mp, unable to have a practical chat on mp, lag is extremly bad on mp, the patch and pirate versions of game are being used on mp, and many more all directing to MP.

NOT THE GAME, BUT THE MULTIPLAYER NETWORK. sheesh, the multpilayer network isn't even runned by firaxis, b**** to gamespy, they are currently directing games on it.

and as for your "bearing the problems", you don't seem to take in account th massive complexities of playing a high-end game like ptw on the internet, its not like war III and the diablo games, there are so many avriables that must be calculated that it will take long for it to work out.

now please,s top trying to act like a smart a**.