01-12-2002 04:01									#121
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A moat isn't connected to any river or ocean Apep...else, moat wouldn't have water

-Mellian

	01-12-2002 04:12									#122
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Yes it is, a moat has to be kept flowing or it dries out (It also needs an entry point!)

	01-12-2002 04:32									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Apep Yes it is, a moat has to be kept flowing or it dries out (It also needs an entry point!)

Yes, underground water source and since the water is not flowing, would be swamp like.

-Mellian

	01-12-2002 04:37									#124
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Umm....a moat isn't connected to any other water source. It is simply a moat, a trench filled with water.

As for the explainations, well the story must go on. I doubt you will change anything.

I would just like to state the way you explained these events could explain any event. Sheep's bombing of the CIA building could have also been explained in detail afterwards and would have been possible...not impossible. I could automatically say every major ARM organizer and organizations have been eliminated. Then afterwards I come here and explain in full detail and logic how this could have been done...not impossible. Nothing is impossible or unachievable, miracles do happen but it isn't fair that some can do it while others can not. All I say is to try to make things more probable and less miraculous. Stay away from situations that could be considered very improbable.
What you did was improbable but it won't kill us to move on, just be more probable and realistic is all I say.

Move on.

	01-12-2002 04:58									#125
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Sheep exploding a building isn't achievable, which was explained why before.... require barrels of gunpowder, which you can''t really sneak into the place without being noticed. Also, sheep did that in response to me taking his hideout in apolyton, after american spies located the place and inform organizer Colonel Harrington. the improbability level is lot higher then using a single cannon against the Prison and that peticular bombing post i categorize as a revenge, which the cannon thing wasn't.

Just keep in mind that i let by a lot of improbabilities go by, especially the Cognac Raider missions, musket on a horse, Fox Riders (let that by cause they are armed with swords too, instead of depending solely on the musket which can only be fired and reloaded if the horse isn't moving), infecting the palace which jack and you took advantage of, the quick overthrow of the government soon after returning to Apolyton and then quickly securing the entire island without much challenge in the same month, and list goes on. What i did is nothing compare to what i let you, mmtt, Giovanni, Jack, Apep and so on do in the story. To be called a godmodder is quite insulting, especially by those i could accuse of the same thing. As moderator, i have to keep a balance of realism and fun... if the story isn't fun, wouldn't still be writing, hmm?

Now, let move on (yes yes, me needing to have the last word )

-Mellian

	01-12-2002 06:02									#126
	Got spare money?

Sorry, but I got to respond, come on like you didn't expect it?


First of all Sheep exploding the CIA building would be achievable compared to one cannon being snuck into well gaurded areas blowing down a wall of a prison in one well aimed shot from quite a distance in the nightime and still manage to have both targets escape. Also, CIA would not have expected such a thing at all, an escape attempt or rescure attempt is expected of mellian and apep. If you want me to post an 'explanation' on how this could be done than I will.

Also, the Fox riders can fire their weapons while riding, it won't be accurate but the simultaneous fire by a wave of cavalrymen can achieve casualties by the rain of musket balls falling upon the enemy. They only carry the musket to ultimately fire it once before they discard it and charge with swords. They did recieve casualties, high at times, but are superior considering their speed and originality at the times, they also confused the enemy because of this new found speed and new found tactics.

Our troops returned, high on victory and loyal to their commanders who fought beside them those long months overseas, not much exposure to Apolyton. They come back, able to rest for long while, sees the country they bled and died for is being taken over by a foreigner so willingly agree to have their brave commanders take power. A very experienced and capable army, catch apolyton totally by surprise, people don't realize whats going on, their war heroes take over a country from a foreigner. Nobody had no clue this was going to happen, a coup could have been easily achieved especially by the capabilities and current popularity of the current triumvirat.

As for the Cognac Raider raids well why couldn't they have been successful? No reason not to have, also they weren't invincible for Cognac was captured. I never sent the Raiders to conquer freakin London or anything, they made simply raids of surprise and fire in the middle of the night.

And I didn't call you anything....

And the prison food wasn't that bad....

Ok, now we can move on....

======
My msn is easthaven505@hotmail.com to answer you question in the other post.

Last edited by Easthaven I on 01-12-2002 at 06:17

	01-12-2002 07:02									#127
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

if some details hasn't been mentioned, then another would provide it for whatever reason...

so, since I am the one who first mentioned about the prison food, then the fact that it sucked is cannon.

works for everything...

want to prevent all realistic possibilities? then write several hundred pages of how anal the military security is in Sanhopi or anywhere else before anyone else can find some holes to take advantage of...

i should add what i said above into the rules...didn't i mention that already?


-Mellian

Last edited by Mellian on 01-12-2002 at 07:14

	01-12-2002 16:10									#128
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Well:

So in those past few posts, we have just come back to discuss what's realistic. How can we define it that's a good question with no answer. Every writers, by exemple Apep or me, have different degrees of realism.

So, any day, there is a collision, a clash like the prison did. We have been arguing that's not realistic, you can't blow a wall in a shot. Here is the breaking point. Mellian replies that is an old prison.

For us, I mostly speak about the Consuls, we have taken Sanhopi prison has a good prison. Consuls are quite intelligent at least. They are if they have been able to take power without much resistance. So, what are they going to do with those prisoners?
Send them to the best prison in Apolyton. I have chosen Sanhopi as the best prison because that's one of the only name I know, because during Civil War I came back from there.

From now on, I have just see posts of Mellian saying we are as realistic as she is etc...

Alright:
-Irrealistic coup:
Uh? Having a plan for 6 months(in the game), coming back to Sanhopi by late december, regrouping our army during January.
And suddenly coming from nowhere, we have got a new leader. A foreign.
What can do some nationalists field marshalls to this?
They just take power because the past leaders have been weak. A mad man called Civman I, two girls and one boy without experience.

In my point of view, Civman there, as usual, did take an unpredictable way of actions. But, without referring to the context, context who was Field Marshalls growing in importance, army regrouping.
If this isn't a warning of something is going to happen?

This was Operation Winter Harvest. During those days, I clearly stated that a plan was going on.
You just had to do the simple deduction: Army coming back+a secret plan+ambitious Field Marshalls=Seizing Power.

Please, Mellian can you tell me with more subtles arguments what is unrealistic in those things? I have followed the context, the background, we have make fast moves to take our opponents on their weak spots, without defense.


-The next argument is a prison is invincible.
As I have said, Sanhopi Prison is a "first-class" prison. To keep political prisoners, you send there your best troops. Uh? that's logical?

To tighten security, you make passwords, papers etc...And you have also there the most guarded person in the world, a name who even Consuls fear, Mellian.
Nobody must approach, must reach her because if she is set out, we may have a civil war.

So, here, to the common people, we have an invincible prison?
Well let's see what are the weakpoints:
-New reinforcements. Not everybody knows everybody. Apep used this, and I thanks him.
-The Commander is a man not a super administrator: So why not corrupt him? With which money do you tell me? With Mellian ones, with the Navy SEAL, super CIA guys coming from nowhere.
-False papers do exist: Why those super CIA guys in Middle Age, can't write some Consul false order?
-You can take people uniform, as Apep did.

So you don't see a plan forecoming?
Hell:
Super CIA boys bring in a whole company with uniform, a major is leading them. Major meets the Commander and corrupts him. Here, we have a sensible point, will the Commander accept, reveal they are spies?
I won't reply as I'm not the Commander, let's admit he is ok on something and sign the papers.
So the company comes into the prison, dispatches guards near the cell without making noise because they are Super r33t navy SEALs of Tom Clancy propaganda, frees mellian and makes her wear an uniform.
They quickly leave the prison with the papers signed by the Commander. As alarm is set, they jump in a American boat and leave for America or a more secret place.


Another way could be take the commander in hostage as corruption failed and because he is a bit fool, go free Mellian. But the guards may still shoot or the Commander in an access of bravery order his men to shoot all those bastards.
Here the mission is quite compromised.
Infinite possibilities.

What can we conclude in my OWN, very OWN opinion?
A more realistic escape could have happen. Bah, that's all yes... but that did take some times to explain it....There, the writer could have read some informations about cannons, or inform himself about Middle Ages methods.
I don't say I'm perfect on this, keep it in your mind, but I stay as close as I can to a thin real line sometimes bypassed by the irrealistic background of the story(referring there to posts like: well this is not realistic, it's different). Those posts make things even less clearer.


-Food isn't good. Oh well simple, Easthaven said he changed to a better food, and a more human treats. Ya, it's written.
You may dislike it but food is better than for the simple commoner.
That's your tastes.

(what a nice super argument)
-We have been a lot of times uber irrealistic:
Cognac raids mission: well could you precise?
Shooting while riding: Well maybe 2 or 3 shots hit their target, I'm mostly using shooting first then rushing in with swords drawn.
Infecting palace? I don't understand that's Apep who did the plague. Jack just burn it to ground, like any wise person would do, go back refer to post if you like, that's written clearcly IMHO and please don't refer to Jack as he didn't take much parts in those discussions and has been fairly realistic.
Island ours in a month: Quite simple to answer, I would have thought better from you: NO opposition, I would say if there isn't any strong opposition, it's quite understandable that we take it in a month. Isn't this obvious? Or maybe there was the ELITE SUPER MARINES NAVY SEALS who would have revolt the peasants...
-And the final one: "Because it's in the rules"(where can I find them, I don't remember where they are: url plz), "it's in the book, I say the truth and you say useless things".
An argument defended by a nice exemple: write 700 pages about the security.

Alright, so each times to be anal I will write 700 pages and kill myself at each post.
Also because, prison sucked we blow it a with a very weak marine cannon, couleuvrin, about 4 to 8 pounds at a an approx range of 750 meters or yards, during night aiming perfectly at first shot.
Argument about prison has just been stated above, reread please.

No arguments have been accepted until there are better justifications.

Yet, in my common humbility, I will let you escape, I'm so nice, don't you think?...

--------------------------
PS:
The above content was meant to be a little offensive to make fun of CIA operatives during Middle Age as irrealistic it can be.
Thanks to have read me.
I will gratefully answer further questions to irreal things, and if it is made clear, that couldn't take part of the story by clear sentences without subtle humor with turn things pretty bad, once again IMHO, I will edit or explain them by a clever post stating that those things have been done.

You would also notice that the same thing will further happen as nothing in fact have been achieved by this. We don't have a solid background and a solid history to base us on.

No harsh offense was here made by me with a bit of subtle humor to make us feel idiots Mellian often uses.

Last edited by mmtt on 01-12-2002 at 16:27

	01-12-2002 22:46									#129
	Put an end to popups!

quote: No harsh offense was here made by me with a bit of subtle humor to make us feel idiots Mellian often uses

???

Anyway, as you say, there always infinite of possibilities, but the story simply went the way it did. no serious harm done. A lot of supposelly unprobable moments as happened in real life... can think up of any from the top of my head at the moment, but will post them once i find them again from the history books i have...

Anyway, lets move on

-Mellian

	01-12-2002 23:58									#130
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1. I'm back.
2. Having briefly looked over the argument you were having, i would like to remind everyone that the point of this is to make a good stroy, NOT to have your character be successful (and i realize i'm starting to sound the way i did as SNESA (the first one) was beginning to die... ).

	02-12-2002 06:37									#131
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

good point too

-Mellian

	02-12-2002 09:01									#132
	Remove this text

"Printing Press are reserved to the State as it is very rare and very expensive. People who have the skills to do so, have been regrouped into the Apolyton Times but if anybody wants to express himself, he can ask the imprimers."

does this mean that there is a law that printing presses can only be owned by state, or just that they are too expensive to be practical for private ownership?

	02-12-2002 12:05									#133
	Increase Your PM Length

I am sure it is the latter. Choice number 2.

An analogy (maybe not a good one)would be: a citizen back in 1945 trying to build and operate an atomic bomb, or even try to buy one. Very impractical.... Now that I think of it maybe it ain't a good analogy at all, but hey the only one I got this late in the night.

	02-12-2002 12:30									#134
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Still waiting for an explaination as to how Jack found out about the american spies and how Thundrfire knows CIA exists without omnicients gods telling them about it?

-Mellian

	02-12-2002 12:31									#135
	Got spare money?

Unscratchful, its Ms.

im sure Queen is quite visible under my name and beside the flag

-Mellian

	02-12-2002 13:00									#136
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Well, the CIA aided in hunting down Sheep during civil war, that's how we know they exist. Come on, like the existance of the CIA would totally be unknown?

As for how he found out, I don't know. Maybe somebody ratted them out, eh? So, They could do all this without getting even remotely detected? Does this mean I can send in our intelligence agencies into America to stir up trouble and cause riots and revolution without being detected at all? Give weapons to the local commies and rescue some political prisoners?

You don't seem to give much explaination on how the CIA rescued you or how they gave the cannon to Apep II or how they seem to be 'watching over' the republican movement. So why should Jack explain how he found out their involvement?

=======


Here I got one, one of the prisoners escaping hid under some rubble. And he saw Mellian lying unconscious, he was about to run off to escape but heard footsteps nearby, and suddenly super American agents seem to pop up, finding exactly where Mellian was. He watched quietly as they pick her up and try to wake her, saying they are americans rescueing her. When waking her up fails, they carry her away as wolf soldiers flood the area. This prisoner thinking of how valuable the information he has turns himself in. And then tells of what he saw, gets to see Consul Jack, and tells him everything. Seems to be realistic, although I explained it afterwards it still works perfectly and is perfectly explainable.

	02-12-2002 18:14									#137
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Why dont you settle your arguments and return to the game?

Also, I think some people may need to update thier biographies in the great library (or make another thread just for biographies)

	02-12-2002 20:36									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Easthaven I Well, the CIA aided in hunting down Sheep during civil war, that's how we know they exist. Come on, like the existance of the CIA would totally be unknown?

was only Mellian in the gov they informed that they were helping to find Sheep

quote: As for how he found out, I don't know. Maybe somebody ratted them out, eh? So, They could do all this without getting even remotely detected? Does this mean I can send in our intelligence agencies into America to stir up trouble and cause riots and revolution without being detected at all? Give weapons to the local commies and rescue some political prisoners?

just like that, no. american spies as infiltrated Apolyton for more then two years you know commies don't exist until Communism.

quote: You don't seem to give much explaination on how the CIA rescued you or how they gave the cannon to Apep II or how they seem to be 'watching over' the republican movement. So why should Jack explain how he found out their involvement?

???

how much more explaination then the one i already provided in discussion do you need

they took Mellian out of the moat before she drowned and ran off into the night, while the guards and militart are busy figuring out what happened and locating that cannon that fired at the prison.

They sold the cannon t Apep at the Harbor, which was stash with supplies ment for their Embassy... and took the cannon from the merchant ship that brought the stuff, by the spies request... captain was fairly reinbursed for it

will stop with this sense of hostility already?

quote: Here I got one, one of the prisoners escaping hid under some rubble. And he saw Mellian lying unconscious, he was about to run off to escape but heard footsteps nearby, and suddenly super American agents seem to pop up, finding exactly where Mellian was. He watched quietly as they pick her up and try to wake her, saying they are americans rescueing her. When waking her up fails, they carry her away as wolf soldiers flood the area. This prisoner thinking of how valuable the information he has turns himself in. And then tells of what he saw, gets to see Consul Jack, and tells him everything. Seems to be realistic, although I explained it afterwards it still works perfectly and is perfectly explainable.

stop being an [butt].

	02-12-2002 20:38									#139
	Got spare money?

if i knew mmtt and easthaven will become *******s and uptight about it, i wouldn't even of bothered! geeezz

so stop ruining thee story over your suppose vendetta against me and get along with the story...

If people wants, we can timewarps into the Industrial era...where we would have a better idea what is realistic and probable then the renaissance

-Mellian

Last edited by Mellian on 02-12-2002 at 22:04

	03-12-2002 02:51									#140
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I'm up for a little time trael. How far should we go into the industrial era?

	03-12-2002 04:38									#141
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despite the advantage of time-warping it seems incredibly unlikely that at this point we would be able to even approach a majority, much less a consensus as to what would happen in the intervening years, especially considering the recent...disagreements. I reccomend that we wait until things are relatively stable before any major time advancements take place

	03-12-2002 05:11									#142
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Gotta love how you nes folks pick & choose who let into your tight little circle. I guess I'm not boring enough for this nes stuff.

Sorry, it's just that you used my character and made him do something signigicant that i had not said i was going to do, and made some very unrealistic things happen given that my character is over 90% Iroquois.

	03-12-2002 05:22									#143
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also, apolyton empire is NOT a nes damnit!

icarus, we don't need to much into details as to what will happen. basic things we need to agree upon is Era and form of Government.... rest in the individual authors responsibioity and the background stuff is the storymaster/moderator/whatever... which is moi.
we done it at the beginning of this, can do it again.

but can also wait until things stablelizes....unless the story picks up again.


also, the idea that we pick and chose is silly :P open to anyone, as long you go a long with the flow without stepping on the other toes realistic and constantency (whatever) wise.


-Mellian

	03-12-2002 05:39									#144
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darnit, Ming is threatening to move us to whereveer the darn neses are :P

quickly told him i have been through this with DanQ and stated the reasons which convinced DanQ. Also sent a PM to MarkG about it

Apolyton Empire is a Civ3 story, damn well belongs in the Civ3 - Stories forum!

-Mellian

	03-12-2002 10:23									#145
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Yes this is not an NES story, it is a Civ3 story written by many people. Why cant people get that through there heads?????

	03-12-2002 11:17									#146
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I would like to say one thing. It seems the very people that were acusing me of unrealistic plots and the like, are now guilty of it themselves.

	03-12-2002 12:48									#147
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Nothing compared to your farfetch out of nowhere assassinations attempts, silly bombings and other instant this and that.

Besides, what i did is not unrealistic...unprobable maybe, but still possible

also, we moved on.

-Mellian

	03-12-2002 13:28									#148
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thats not what other I have spoken too think, but then again I thought what I did was not unrealistic, might be unprobable but possible so hey you can;t have it both ways

	03-12-2002 20:59									#149
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your feud is not productive. Might you just drop it and get on with life?

	03-12-2002 22:20									#150
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Easthaven, and also everyone else, you guys need to check you pm box, as some i send pms to never check it and read it. I just sent you a pm Easthaven.