01-11-2002 20:16									#1
	Please describe MOO2 to an SE4 player Suffering from ads?

Hi all

I'm a big big BIG fan of Space Empires IV, but sometimes I'd like to check out other space development and conquest games. I'm looking forward to MOO3 because of the way it's being described, but have never played MOO or MOO2.

Could somebody describe MOO2 and compare it to SE4? Are you an SE4 player who also plays MOO2?

Thanks!

	01-11-2002 21:33									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Well it's Friday and I don't feel like getting any work done so I will.

Planets and Universe:

Moo2 has multiple planets per system, and travel between planets in a system is abstracted. There is no warp points in Moo2, each system is like a point on the map and you can move freely between any of them (There are blackholes and things like that that can impede movement).

Game setup:

You can customize your race in a similar way as SE4, although there is no favored planet type and atmospheres. Moo2 also has the usual kinds of options for size, players, etc.

Moo2 has an option for Antaren attack. They are an ancient race who will periodically attack a system and then disappear. You can also invade their homeworld as an option to win.

Tech and Industry:

There are 5 sizes of planets with a number of different types(Terran, Ocean, Desert, etc) that determines how many people can fit on a planet. Some racial picks modify that, plus a terraforming technology. A new colony starts out with one unit (which represents 1 million people or something), and the biggest planets hold around 40. Colonists can be moved around, but only in units.

Each unit can be assigned to farming, industry, or research. Plus each unit generates money from tax. Each unit requires one food (a couple of race picks can change this). You can build buildings which do all the kinds of things you are used to, but only one building of each type on a planet. The buildings require money for upkeep.

Building takes industry from the planet that is building it and that planet only. Although food can be distributed by freighters to other planets. This is abstracted, if your empire has X number of freighters you can move X units of food, it happens automatically. Moving colonists also takes freighters, but all you have to do is drag a colonist from one planet to another from the colony screen, and it takes a few turns depending on your drive speed and the distance. You can use money to rush finish a building if you want.

There are eight tech groups each with a number of levels. Each level has 1-3 techs you can pick from. A custom race option allows you to research all the techs from each level.

Ship design and combat

There are 6 ship sizes, and each one has a certain amount of space. Design is similar to SE4 except it's done by space left, not slots. As you get higher tech older weapons decrease in size so you can fit more of them on.

Combat is also similar, both turn based, the "arena" is smaller so a lot of weapons can hit from anywhere. Shields are done a little differently. The ship only has one, and when the strength is gone it will still block some damage until it gets destroyed.

There is no concept of ship supply in Moo2. You have a fuel range, but that only determines how far out from your systems you can go. You never have to resupply.

You have a number of command points depending on your tech and how many starbases you have.

Ok I have to get back to work now

	01-11-2002 22:43									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Aaron Hall made a great game IMO in SE3. I found SE4 to be better looking and improved, but not quite as much fun. I paid for the full version in SE3. I bought SE4 and then the gold version. IOW I am very familar with both games. I do not know about a comparison of one run of each game, but if you look at how many times one would play a single player game of either, Moo or Moo2 is so far out in front. You could toss in Stars here as well. I would have to say Stars is a better game than SE and I am much more likely to fire up a game of Stars than SE. As I said, I like all of those games, just Moo and Moo2 are extremely well suited for replayablitiy. I can only say you should get your hands on either one and try them. I am a big fan of 4x tbs space games and still have Ascendency/Alien Legacy/Pax II/SEIV/Stars/Star General on my pc (plus a real time one Star Ships Unlimited).

	02-11-2002 00:21									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Thanks for the info....

I'm also a huge Stars and Ascendancy fan. SE4 reminded me in some ways of Ascendancy, which IMO had a great "feel" and "atmosphere" for a DOS game. I've spent *cough* quite a lot of time with Stars over the years...

MOO2 sounds quite good and I'll pick it up on my way home from work. I saw it on the bargain shelf at CompUSA but some of the stuff available for a bargain price....isn't even worth that.

	02-11-2002 00:42									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I don't like warp point based games so that's a big reason I prefer Moo/moo2 to Ascendancy or SE4.

Although I didn't really like the way they did free ship movement in Imperium Galactica. I like to actually have a decent chance at intercepting enemy fleets.

	02-11-2002 02:43									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Antonin if you want any info it can be found on this site or a few others mentioned here.

	02-11-2002 02:52									#7
	star lanes Remove this text

I read that MOO3 will, tragically, have only star lane style travel.

Since someone mentioned Ascendancy, I want to point out that I thought those tunnels made no sense (they could be briefly blocked too) and the AI for Ascendancy was really really bad. But I played it a bunch anyway.

Star lanes

	02-11-2002 06:13									#8
	Put an end to popups!

All true xoham, but the game came when nothing else for 4x was out. It had the worst AI (has, I still play). The blocking was late in the game and could be busted with guns. One race had the lane blocking trait.

	04-11-2002 23:47									#9
	Suffering from ads?

I heard Moo3 has only faster star lane travel. If you want you can still take non-starlanes, it just takes longer.

But I am still not happy about the direction this is going.

	05-11-2002 00:06									#10
	Support Apolyton

I am. One of the things that are sadly lacking in space game is strategics of the field - the ability to exploit the terrain to your advantage. Star lanes, if done right, introduces strategic chokepoints and must-hold junctions. I love it already.

	05-11-2002 01:47									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I will wait and see how it goes. Hopefully in a fews weeks it will be in my hands.

	05-11-2002 01:57									#12
	Support Apolyton

Except I have found that starlanes reduce strategic options, because it becomes all about taking a choke point. In SE4, All I had to do was build starbases at the choke points and nobody could attack me.

Each game just came down to me finding the fewest chokepoints I could, for a decent sized empire, and letting the AI throw ships at me until I wanted to eliminate them.

Best game I have found for strategic options was VGA planets. You could move your ships anywhere, even just have them sit in deep space. Ships needed fuel to move, you needed materials to build more torpedoes and fighters. You had to expand slowly because you needed to bring supplies up to the front line.

	22-11-2002 01:36									#13
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 ... I do not know about a comparison of one run of each game, but if you look at how many times one would play a single player game of either, Moo or Moo2 is so far out in front. You could toss in Stars here as well. I would have to say Stars is a better game than SE and I am much more likely to fire up a game of Stars than SE. As I said, I like all of those games, just Moo and Moo2 are extremely well suited for replayablitiy. I can only say you should get your hands on either one and try them. I am a big fan of 4x tbs space games and still have Ascendency/Alien Legacy/Pax II/SEIV/Stars/Star General on my pc (plus a real time one Star Ships Unlimited).

I have only played Stars! (and loved it, for a while). Recently I have thought about picking up MOO or MOO2. What are the differences between Stars!, MOO, and MOO2? These space games seems so similar.

	22-11-2002 03:31									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Not sure I can answer that in any satisfactory way. Stars has custom races and so does Moo2 (moo1 does not).
Stars has one planet per star as does Moo1, Moo2 can have multile planets in a star system. In all the planets can have a number of characterics that determine the habability and your racial traits will impact your ability to live there. In Stars and Moo1 you can get tech to alter those conditions, in Moo2 that is not a factor, except that it makes the planets better. I mean that in Moo1 you can not land on some without tech and in Stars and Moo2 it mainly impacts the planets after you are on them.
Ships are not upgradable in Stars or Moo1, but are in Moo2. Moo1 has no real limit to the number (32000 in one stack), but has a limit of 6 types. Stars has a similar limit. Moo2 allows only a few templates at any one time, but you can make as many as you want, sort of like SE. That is I make a template, make a ship and redesign the template and make a new ship, I could still have the original ship or upgrade it. Moo2 has a system of command points that is an atempt to limit the total number of ship in play by a race at any one time. You can exceed it, but it cost you money.

	22-11-2002 03:41									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Combat in stars is not tactical and you only view the results. In Moo1 it is tactical and Moo2 you can choose which you want.
Battles in Stars can occur in space or on planetary bodies. In Moo1/2 they only occur at a planetary bodies and may or may not involve the planets defenses. That is you could attack the planet and it would defend, or they could have ships attack you and no planetary defenses are used.
Tech is researched in Stars in an all for one basis, that is you put as much of your resources as you choose in research, but it all goes to one field. In Moo2 it is the same, in Moo1 you can split the research into all the fields anyway you wish. SE3 had that method, but SE4 uses a gradiant that parcels out the research into as many fields as you select. They are split evenly, no control by you.
This is not all that is in the game, but if you want some other aspects, let me know as I am very familar with all of those games. Sick huh?

	22-11-2002 14:34									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by moomin I am. One of the things that are sadly lacking in space game is strategics of the field - the ability to exploit the terrain to your advantage. Star lanes, if done right, introduces strategic chokepoints and must-hold junctions. I love it already.

I am not sure I am. I have played two strategic boardgames, Empires based on Starfire and Federation & Empire based on Starfleet Battles. The former has warp lanes while the latter doesn't.

Due to the random nature of warp lanes the game becomes even more luck dependent. I seriously doubt that MoO 3 will have an algorithm that is intelligent enough to balance that.

	06-01-2003 22:13									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I am aswell quite scared about how the Starlanes in Moo3 will limit the stratgical depth.

	22-01-2003 05:36									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 . Tech is researched in Stars in an all for one basis, that is you put as much of your resources as you choose in research, but it all goes to one field. In Moo2 it is the same, in Moo1 you can split the research into all the fields anyway you wish. SE3 had that method, but SE4 uses a gradiant that parcels out the research into as many fields as you select. They are split evenly, no control by you.

uh you kinda got it switched, unless there is a brand new patch that i never heard aobut then in moo 2 you can choose where your research goes into, by chooseing fields every time you make a discovery, and you can switch fields in the middle, but then you have to start from the begginning when you choose to research teh field that you left....

	22-01-2003 05:38									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by AIL I am aswell quite scared about how the Starlanes in Moo3 will limit the stratgical depth.

if the starline really just speed up travel then that is really cool and if it is the only way you can travel, then cool, because it add strategic depth, i mean you can't let your enemy blocade the systems surrounding yours, and you can't ignor that stuff like you could in Moo2

but we'll see.....

	22-01-2003 10:50									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

"uh you kinda got it switched, unless there is a brand new patch that i never heard aobut then in moo 2 you can choose where your research goes into, by chooseing fields every time you make a discovery, and you can switch fields in the middle, but then you have to start from the begginning when you choose to research teh field that you left...."
I am not sure I follow this. I said that all the resources you place into researching a field, is put into that one field in Moo2, just like Stars.
As oppose to Moo1, where you can split it into a number of fields and with different amounts.
This was allowed in Se3, but Se4 it is spread evenly among all the fields you choose.
So what part of that is not correct? I did not talk about switching fields, which can be done anytime in Moo2 or when you finish the project.