02-11-2002 02:47									#1
	How can CPU keep fleet size?!? Put an end to popups!

I'm finally playing MOO2 again and have question on the current game I'm playing.

I'm currently involved in a war with the Psilons and have annihilated all but 6 star systems, 4 of which are new colonies with no Starbases (fortresses...etc).

Its fielding a fleet of 30+ DoomStars and the occasional colony ship. How can it afford to keep them? With little to no bases, wouldn't maintenance be obscene?

I don't have enough ships to combat that fleet directly, so I hoped to exterminate all support/income for it to maintain it, but it doesn't seem to stop him fielding such a large fleet. The war has been several turns now, and I don't think the CPU would 'save' enough BC's to maintain it for this long w/o a steady income and command points.

Is the CPU cheating somehow?

This is late game, Huge galaxy and its just me and the Psilons left now. Attached is the last savegame file.

Attachment: save6.zip
This has been downloaded 9 time(s).

	02-11-2002 06:09									#2
	Suffering from ads?

I will look at it, but one thing that comes to mind is trades. Do hey have cash in the bank? They can sell off structures, etc. 30 Doom Stars, should be enough to kill every thing in the universe.

	02-11-2002 07:21									#3
	Tired of ads?

I looked at it and they have 6 systems, not sure how many planets as one system was not known.They have all tech and could be far more productive than you for a given planet that is full developed. They have space port/ core dump/deep mine and on and on. I would think that could handle the cost, but could not be sure.

I would have been very active on stealing from them, they have a lot of stuff you could use. Better computer for beam weapons. Advance citiy planning, morphing and on and on. I would have had 40 spies by now and stole all I could and once that was done, start sabatage. The missing tech is also costing you miniturization, that means less power.
I would never make more than one stellar converter in one DS. It would be to destroy planets so they could not be colonized again. I would pack my ships with disrupters 26 with auto fire can fit with your current tech. I would change some of the specials as they are not useful to the weapons you are using. I would dump ARU. My position is to kill all of their ships the first round, second if need be. The more weapons the better I can do it. I am not concerned about repair as I can lose one or 2 ships, they will be replaced. The DS could have 51. I would have had some phasors, but you do not have them.

	02-11-2002 07:29									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

You can send your fleets to wipe them out to win. Lucking for you the AI does not go to antaria and end the game (if that was enabled). They will bust a few planets, but you have plenty, they will be gone first. It would be fun to have gotten this sooner. I never used plasma webs, they take too many turns to kill late game ships.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 04-11-2002 at 00:50

	03-11-2002 19:02									#5
	Re: How can CPU keep fleet size?!? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Fact is it can't for very long. I don't recall what turn your save started with, but at turn 607 their fleet was gone. Lost 3 colonies before their demise though. Turn 609 - game won.

VMX is right, they could have had a large cash stock pile. In a huge impossible galaxy, I usually end w/ >100k even after buying all I need. (that's assuming I haven't been crushed in early game)

Last edited by BraerFox on 03-11-2002 at 19:07

	04-11-2002 19:44									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Thanks for the input guys.

Ya...I just blitzed it with my regular fleet and won. Antaraan was on...but with my 4 Stellar Doomstars, it would have been and easier to win. I wanted to conquer the galaxy.

Obviously...I need more practice.

Thanks again.

	15-11-2002 17:25									#7
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Stellar Doomstars are not the best for killing ships .... You'd better went for Disrupter ones; A properly designed Doomstar can wipe a 8-10 of theirs (and even more) for a single turn !!! With 4-5 of these there is no problem to handle 30 :-) I have led battles with 10 Doomstars vs 60+ Psilon's ones. They couldn't even fire a single shot in spite of the Psilon having Xentronium.....

	15-11-2002 23:22									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

You can in fact defeat the full 100 ships with one DS. I have done it with around 60, but some one posted the full 100. The only way to see that is to give the ai the cash to build them. I do not even use DS as a ship to ship fighter. I use it to destroy planets.

	16-11-2002 02:21									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

doesn't anyone design their late game doomstars with plasma cannons?
They have 2x range penalties, but their miniaturization is great - combo them with achilles and rangemaster (counter the range penalties... which isn't much of a concern late game anyway) and built in enveloping, and you have a ship that is incredibley effective at removing enemy ships.
I like throwing on hyper-X capacitors if I can get those too.
They have problems with planets that have the best shieds - but another design with a converter can take care of that.
Anyway - the computer's fleets of doomstars usually drops easily especially if I have phasing cloaks too - I get the first shot this way. I can usually take out a fleet of 20 doomstars with 10 of my own.

	16-11-2002 02:31									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Plasma Cannons are fun and sound great. They just are not the best choice as they have range limits. Disrupters and phasors are better. I do not even make DS most of the time, no need. Titans or BB can handle the AI's DS's. The fact is that you can defeat the late game AI ships with spit balls. Use any weapons you like. I am only concerned with the stage where I am going into elimination mode and they will have more ships, more systems and probably more tech. I have some exposure here, but once I hit the 2 or 3 biggest fleets, I can cruise.

	18-11-2002 13:48									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

May be plasma cannons are effective against damper fields with their enveloping but weaker against shields.

	18-11-2002 22:38									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Since its imposible to make plasma cannons shield-piercing they can't do as well against ships with shields as they do against antarans. Still, I rpefer them to disrupterm since I usually close with the enemy and use continious heavy plasma as mucha s possible, thus negating much of the distance problems.

I find death beams ineffective: not worth the size. same for mauler devices.

	19-11-2002 06:41									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

A number of major points for the plasma cannons though -
(a) The enveloping aspect allows you to damage ships with downed shields even if they have a fully functional shield facing your weapons.

(b) High likelihood of core-breach in a destroyed enemy ship - although I don't have any actual stats - just my impression from having used them fairly extensively.
Facing a large enemy formation you can often target every second ship or so and have many of those you don't fire on still crippled or destroyed by the large numbers of core breaches.

(c) Just about the singular best weapon against missile volleys - whether due to direct-fire or breaching enemy ships leading to fractricide amongst their in-flight volleys.

Death rays are highly useful in conjunction with your teleporter ships that can beam marines onto still-functional enemy vessels. Heavy death rays are generally powerfull enough to take down a facing shield and wipe out a large portion of their crew. Beam your own forces over et voila. You have a new ship right in the middle of their formation with only one down shield facing you. AI pours huge volumes of fire into it from all sides (fire that thereby isn't hitting your own ships) through full shields while you're closing to point blank range.

Re: The original point about fleet sizes - Advanced. populous and high-morale planets can generate surprisingly large amounts of cash when set to producing trade goods. Even with less than a half-dozen planets they should be able to produce a thousand or more per turn which equates to a hundred command points. This assumes, of course, that the AI (a) Isn't replacing ships continuously, and (b) doesn't cheat.

Last edited by ravagon on 19-11-2002 at 06:52

	19-11-2002 09:51									#14
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I used plasma cannons (in 131) for a long time as I just like the sound and they are of course able to do the things you mentioned. I finally switched to disruptors as they are just able to do more damage to ships and can to a fair job with planets. I used to run into barrier shields with plasma cannons and they flat out could not do anything. Even with HV monted cannons you still need to move closers to get full damage. Next time you have a chance take a look at fully modded disruptors in action they just chew up ships.
I will leave the death ray for others as I do not bother with boarding ships. You need to be a tele to use them during the battle. By the time I have teleporters and death rays, I will just whack any fleet I find.
At this stage I am not worried about any missle attacks they will not be a factor. I will have likely gotten X-arm from Orion or dampers and be using very tuff to kill ships and if they do manage to get one or two, no sweat. I will have some BB with phasors using AP and causing lots of core breaches and wiping out missile beofre they get to me in large part. Really at this stage it is just dealers choice and you can do what you like.