03-11-2002 00:50									#1
	Here we go again...... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Wow! Based on what I've read here so far, it sounds like there are a lot of outstanding issues regarding this upgrade. I just bought PTW and I haven't installed it yet, primarily because I haven't played Civ3 in many, many months and wanted to first re-familiarize myself with the game before diving into MP. I hope that what I've read here is not an indication of what I'll have to contend with when I take the plunge.

I think it's important, however, to bear in mind that Civ3 (1.07f) also contained numerous bugs and lingering imperfections when it was first released last year. To their credit, Firaxis has, over the past year, been very responsive in periodically churning out patches to deal with those lingering issues. Let's hope they do the same for PTW as well.

	03-11-2002 01:32									#2
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I take it you are not the minuteman I trounced in MP the other day then . trounced is too strong a word, got lucky at first and the lag/jumpyness did the rest.

nice post, its good to keep some perspective.

No one can deny there are serious problems now. However, no one can deny that Firaxis has responded with 3, 4? patches to improve the original game and will do the same for PTW.

Patience.

The game will be fixed, it will just be a little while.

	03-11-2002 01:42									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Minutemen, may as well install PTW and get used it. It has some nice features.

	03-11-2002 01:43									#4
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Minutemen, may as well install PTW and get used it. It has some nice features.

good point

luck at some of the other threads on this page, there are a lot of great new features in PTW

and I haven't seen any problems in the SP, so you're safe there

	03-11-2002 02:26									#5
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Agreed. Single player experience is much improved.

Haven't tried multiplayer really. PBEM is going to be my thing I would think.... and anyway, all you yanks lag too much

D

	03-11-2002 03:47									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I can't say they are no problems yet as today is the first time I made a full run. Up to now it has been load a new game with a new civ and look around a bit and start over. I am going to play the Arabs to the end and have gone to the middle ages and no problems so far.

	03-11-2002 06:13									#7
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I take it you are not the minuteman I trounced in MP the other day then . trounced is too strong a word, got lucky at first and the lag/jumpyness did the rest. nice post, its good to keep some perspective. No one can deny there are serious problems now. However, no one can deny that Firaxis has responded with 3, 4? patches to improve the original game and will do the same for PTW. Patience. The game will be fixed, it will just be a little while.

I consider that a RELEASED game should NOT have to wait for patchs tu run without too much problems.

Now, perhaps I'm just a bit too naive

	03-11-2002 06:32									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil I consider that a RELEASED game should NOT have to wait for patchs tu run without too much problems. Now, perhaps I'm just a bit too naive

I totally agree. Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy with the situation. but I know what to expect from Infogrames and what to expect from Firaxis. and I also know what the industry is like today.

also since I'm not much of an Mp'r, i can handle flaws with it. if SP became broken again, then....

	03-11-2002 07:23									#9
	Support Apolyton

I'm with you guys. Call me old fashioned but I'm going to wait until the next patch, see if that fixes most of the MP problems, then take a second look at buying PtW. I just feel uncomfortable buying software before I know if it works or not.

That and I don't like rewarding the bad practice of releasing things on the public before they are fully ready.

	03-11-2002 07:52									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Oerdin, I hear ya, but I gotta cast my vote for buying PTW... just in SP, the new features and other stuff are quite worth it.

	03-11-2002 08:47									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yup I like it, but I understand the sentiments about getting hozed with broken or missing things.

	03-11-2002 11:27									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil I consider that a RELEASED game should NOT have to wait for patchs tu run without too much problems. Now, perhaps I'm just a bit too naive

Yes, you are indeed too naive if you still expected this after Civ3.

	03-11-2002 11:31									#13
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Well, maybe not naive, but it does seem to be getting common now adays. Let me take that back, as I just remember Hive did not work and some others the same years, so it has been around for awhile.

	03-11-2002 11:56									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Most software programing companies are small while most software publishing companies are quite large. On top that in most major markets only about five publishers who control the lion's share of the software market. That means the publisher can strong arm the small programers into doing what ever they want them to do.

If the programers say they will need one year to develop a program and the publisher comes back and says "do it in eight months or I will drop your product from our shipping schedule" then the game will be release in eight months reguardless of whither it is finished or not. Since an oligopoly of publishers and distributors control what programs get to market the programers have no choice but to keep the publishers happy or to watch the company go under.

Lack of competetion in the publishing & distribution business is harming consumers. Remember that next time your Republican representative tells you so and so mega-merger will be good for consumers.

Last edited by Oerdin on 03-11-2002 at 15:19

	03-11-2002 13:47									#15
	Suffering from ads?

I was following you until you went off the deep end with the the politics. What do republics have to do with it? Seems like the Clintonites presided over many of the biggest mergers. The way the market works is demands will get met. If the behavior is as you say that only means the customers like it that way, if not it would get changed. When enities fail to met needs they go out of business. New business will fill the need. This gets subverted when the government steps in.

	03-11-2002 14:55									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I really have a hard time to understand why expensive computer software should not work perfectly out of the box. There no valid reason why I as a consumer should accept a product that is only semi-finished. Is there any other business where such flaws would be accepted?

Books: - OK, pages 102, 157 and 239 are missing, but you can download them from the publishers web site...

DVD movies: - Oops, the sound in scene 12 is not in sync with the speach. Please download a patch from our web to create a new copy on your own dvd burner...

Beverages: Eeeh, 2 cans in this sixpack has no CO2. Just find out which and throw them away...

	03-11-2002 17:23									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

LOL! It's nice to see that these fora haven't changed one bit in the months I've been away. Even the most innocuous threads here never fail to open a can of worms somewhere along the way.

Look, after hanging around these boards for months after Civ3 was first released last year, I learned that Firaxis was essentially in a no-win situation from the start. From the very beginning there were incessant cries about the lack of MP in Civ3, which was understandable. That coupled with the plethora of bugs that 1.07f contained amounted to a lot of intense conversations here, along with a fair amount of mud slinging, I might add ( I was branded a "Fanboy", btw )

However, as the months elapsed, Firaxis did address as many of those issues as they could, which is all anyone can realistically expect a software company to do. The end result was that there were still people who were dissatisfied with their efforts.

Now, after only a year since the initial launch of Civ3, Firaxis has attempted to address the last principal complaint regarding this franchise, the lack of MP. And guess what?...there are some people who are dissatisfied with the product. That's a situation that I don't expect to change much as Firaxis proceeds to patch this game over the next few months.

The bottom line here is that if you're looking for perfection, someone to part the Red Sea for you, as it were, don't look towards the software industry. You'll get your heart broken every time. As long as Firaxis continues to demonstrate a willingness to continually improve this product, I'm satisfied. Aside from that, what more can be done?

**Jumps off his trusty soapbox and waits to be flamed**

Last edited by Minuteman on 03-11-2002 at 17:35

	03-11-2002 17:29									#18
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I take it you are not the minuteman I trounced in MP the other day then . trounced is too strong a word, got lucky at first and the lag/jumpyness did the rest.

hehe...Nope, that wasn't me. But you'll have your chance soon enough.

The end result will probably be the same, since I'm nothing without a good trainer in my arsenal.

	03-11-2002 19:28									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Yes, you are indeed too naive if you still expected this after Civ3.

Well, I was not naive ENOUGH to buy it blindly, hopefully
Borrowed it to a friend, tried it, was disgusted.
And considering how he was disgusted to, I think I'll keep his copy for a LONG time. He seems to not even remember he got this game

	03-11-2002 19:34									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Now, after only a year since the initial launch of Civ3, Firaxis has attempted to address the last principal complaint regarding this franchise, the lack of MP. And guess what?...there are some people who are dissatisfied with the product. That's a situation that I don't expect to change much as Firaxis proceeds to patch this game over the next few months.

Well...
Perhaps you're not aware of it, but it happens that they tried to "adress the last principal complaint" buy RELEASING an add-on that we have to PAY for it. And that is STILL buggy as hell, and which contents are hardly worth of the 30 $ it's priced.

So OF COURSE there will be complaints

	03-11-2002 20:00									#21
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Well... Perhaps you're not aware of it, but it happens that they tried to "adress the last principal complaint" buy RELEASING an add-on that we have to PAY for it.

No, I wasn't aware of that. I live at the bottom of an old well and news only trickles down to me once a century.

quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil So OF COURSE there will be complaints

I happen to agree with you. If the product needs improvement, then Firaxis, at least in principle, owes its paying customers the necessary improvements in the form of an effective patch.

However, my point was that, based on their track record, Firaxis will implement these improvements as soon as they can. That bit of knowledge, of course, shouldn't make people who are currently having problems feel any better. But if a company is willing to stand by their product and improve it, that's all anyone can realistically expect.

Have you ever purchased a game or software title in which the company that produces it doesn't deign to patch and improve the product? I have, and it sucks! Even if Firaxis wanted to take this approach with Civ3, we won't let them. We'll nag them until we get what we want!

	03-11-2002 22:43									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well Minuteman, I will take another look at PtW when Firaxis does release a patch that improves the MP proformence. Until then I'm off to the off topic boards. Ta-ta everyone.

	03-11-2002 23:35									#23
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre I really have a hard time to understand why expensive computer software should not work perfectly out of the box.

A $30 dollar piece of software hardly falls into the expensive range. At work I regularly have to buy $20,000 pieces of software to develop even more expensive software. $30 is trivial.

BTW, I have had books that were missing pages. The publisher pretty much told me "TS, want a different book, instead?"

	04-11-2002 00:38									#24
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre I really have a hard time to understand why expensive computer software should not work perfectly out of the box. A $30 dollar piece of software hardly falls into the expensive range. At work I regularly have to buy $20,000 pieces of software to develop even more expensive software. $30 is trivial. BTW, I have had books that were missing pages. The publisher pretty much told me "TS, want a different book, instead?"

Hmm, in England you either return the book to where you bought it from and get a replacement, or you can go via the publishers and get the same deal. My sister once got a dictionary missing some pages, rang the publishers I believe and got a new one whilst keeping the original.

If effectively being told to stick it is the American way, I'm damn glad I live here in England.

regarding the software issue. it's six of one and half-dozen of the other.

it's good that some developers do patch up issues after release. some don't even do that annoyingly after releasing buggy code.

however, releasing the unfinished/buggy software in the first place is pretty dodgy.

somethings won't change though

	04-11-2002 01:17									#25
	Remove this text

I am pretty sure that Firaxis wouldn't have shipped it if not for contractual obligations with their publisher.

	04-11-2002 01:19									#26
	Got spare money?

Well since we have about 300 million, I am glad you live there too. I mean, really what does the return policy have to do with the quaility of life? In any event, the return policy is not universal, different publishers and book stores have their own policies.

	04-11-2002 02:27									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Well since we have about 300 million, I am glad you live there too. I mean, really what does the return policy have to do with the quaility of life? In any event, the return policy is not universal, different publishers and book stores have their own policies.

heheh a bit touchy aren't we? all I did was compare how things seemingly differ between the states and here in england, and point out that here in england we seem to have a better deal with more politely talking customer service.

If you take that as a deadly insult, I'm damn glad too I don't live in America where you might shoot me for the crime ( note to anyone else I'm using argument by absurdity for the last sentence and not being serious before you decide to flame me ).

Warpstorm: I'm sure that is the case but the way the trend is going it's a shame that only the very biggest can afford to say "it'll be out when it's done". Fact of life but regrettable nonetheless.

	04-11-2002 02:32									#28
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Well, I was not naive ENOUGH to buy it blindly, hopefully Borrowed it to a friend, tried it, was disgusted. And considering how he was disgusted to, I think I'll keep his copy for a LONG time. He seems to not even remember he got this game

Wait, you borrowed Civ3 or PTW?

	04-11-2002 03:08									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre I really have a hard time to understand why expensive computer software should not work perfectly out of the box. There no valid reason why I as a consumer should accept a product that is only semi-finished. Is there any other business where such flaws would be accepted? Books: - OK, pages 102, 157 and 239 are missing, but you can download them from the publishers web site... DVD movies: - Oops, the sound in scene 12 is not in sync with the speach. Please download a patch from our web to create a new copy on your own dvd burner... Beverages: Eeeh, 2 cans in this sixpack has no CO2. Just find out which and throw them away...

Let's put it this way. A novel has maybe 50,000 words (and lots of typos and grammatical errors, I might add). A game has anywhere from several hundred thousand (for a SMALL game) to a couple MILLION *lines* of code. Not words, LINES. A game as complex as Civ3 probably has ~5 million or more lines of code, and around 10 or 15 million words, at least. Plus, with code, a typo or grammatical error will cause a bug, UNLIKE with a book, where it may not even be noticed.

Quite frankly, it is literally impossible to ship a bug-free game. That doesn't excuse huge bugs like if the game crashed 100% of the time halfway through, but people really need to realize that it is simply impossible to be 'perfectly stable' with a computer game.

	04-11-2002 05:47									#30
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Wait, you borrowed Civ3 or PTW?

I borrowed PTW.
I got Civ3 last year, and that's precisely what made me acting more cautiously this time