03-11-2002 22:03									#1
	City Manager Bug???? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I am currently playing the Americans. I have most of my cities producing wealth. They have been on that setting for at least 5 turns. They are each producing gold. The bug (at least as far as I see it) is that they also produce soldiers (spearmen, horsemen and archers while they are producing gold). Normally this wouldn't bother me, but it gets to be a pain in the you know what to have to kill them off all the time.

Here is the game save. It may be a bug in my game or it may be a patch bug. Let me know please...

Attachment: this is wierd americans, 570 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	04-11-2002 07:16									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

This is not a bug.

Your game play is a bit out of tune with good practices and your worker tasking is way below the minimum success level that will let you compete and enjoy the game. You have mined plains and irrigated grasslands and you are stuck in despotism.

First, you have the accelerated production turned on which distorts everything in the game. Don't you think that was an important consideration to reveal when you asked for help???

You have had the Pyramids built for over 1500 years and with accelerated production you only require 5 food units to grow a new person. You should be way ahead of where you are so far in the game. Every city you own should be throwing out settlers and workers since you know you are alone on your continent and you still have 1/2 the landmass unsettled.

Second, there is almost no logical or valid reason for you to be building wealth in the BCs even when you have accelerated production turned on. We have had the wealth discussion before on a number of occassions and building wealth almos talways results in you having less money, less power, less units, less science, and less fun in the long run. Back up in your game play process and learn what units and improvements you need to improve the progress of your civilization.

Even if you had a valid reason to build wealth (which you don't), the way the wealth setting works is to convert shields to cash at an 8 to 1 ratio in the time frame you currently are in.

This only holds true for 1 turn and then the next turn production will shift based on how you have the governor options set in your cities.

Third, you have access to horses but have built no horsemen yet. Horses are the key to fully controlling your continent and keeping out the rif-raf. You have 25 spearmen and seem to be obssessed with this half of the equation.

Fourth, you already own the Great Lighthouse and should have 4 or 5 galleys out exploring instead of just 1 with one measly scout in it. With no Iron on your continent you are burning daylight and screwing around while you need to be locating and controlling this resource.

I will not give you the key to keep your cities set to build wealth because that would be like helping you load more bullets in the revolver that you already have shown you are trying to shoot yourself in the foot with, but I will tell you the key lies in the preferences and the governor settings.

Try focusing more effort on building key city improvements plus important units with mobility and expanding your empire in a productive manner. Building wealth is not part of this strategy or any other valid strategy for ancient age success.

	04-11-2002 07:50									#3
	Remove this text

I'd just like to add that i also think it is bugged based on my experience.

With over 300 cities..i have the AI managing all cities now.

I have units set to never and workers set to never for all cities (done several times since it sometimes takes a few tries to disable the music so i thought might be same problem)

Anywaz, about 5 workers are produced every turn now. (EDIT: now down to 50 workers..so now i'm getting 12 workers per turn {rotating cities as i change production away from worker})

Not a big deal in itself ..cept i been trying to exterminate most of my 300+ workers to cut down on the 5-8 min auto portion. (these days over a hundred workers just stay in city centers doing nothing...or move into a square and then out followed by different workers doing same thing next turn)

The odd time a city will produce a mech inf despite the never. But at least they are not making immortals now

even more annoying is that my cities will opt to make a nuclear power plant even though i have the hoover dam wonder on the continent.

so ya, i agree, buggy city management and a few other things

Last edited by Redstar on 04-11-2002 at 09:38

	04-11-2002 08:10									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by cracker This is not a bug. Your game play is a bit out of tune with good practices and your worker tasking is way below the minimum success level that will let you compete and enjoy the game. You have mined plains and irrigated grasslands and you are stuck in despotism. First, you have the accelerated production turned on which distorts everything in the game. Don't you think that was an important consideration to reveal when you asked for help??? You have had the Pyramids built for over 1500 years and with accelerated production you only require 5 food units to grow a new person. You should be way ahead of where you are so far in the game. Every city you own should be throwing out settlers and workers since you know you are alone on your continent and you still have 1/2 the landmass unsettled. Second, there is almost no logical or valid reason for you to be building wealth in the BCs even when you have accelerated production turned on. We have had the wealth discussion before on a number of occassions and building wealth almos talways results in you having less money, less power, less units, less science, and less fun in the long run. Back up in your game play process and learn what units and improvements you need to improve the progress of your civilization. Even if you had a valid reason to build wealth (which you don't), the way the wealth setting works is to convert shields to cash at an 8 to 1 ratio in the time frame you currently are in. This only holds true for 1 turn and then the next turn production will shift based on how you have the governor options set in your cities. Third, you have access to horses but have built no horsemen yet. Horses are the key to fully controlling your continent and keeping out the rif-raf. You have 25 spearmen and seem to be obssessed with this half of the equation. Fourth, you already own the Great Lighthouse and should have 4 or 5 galleys out exploring instead of just 1 with one measly scout in it. With no Iron on your continent you are burning daylight and screwing around while you need to be locating and controlling this resource. I will not give you the key to keep your cities set to build wealth because that would be like helping you load more bullets in the revolver that you already have shown you are trying to shoot yourself in the foot with, but I will tell you the key lies in the preferences and the governor settings. Try focusing more effort on building key city improvements plus important units with mobility and expanding your empire in a productive manner. Building wealth is not part of this strategy or any other valid strategy for ancient age success.

Even if I suck at playing this game, that doesn't explain why I have the city set to build wealth and it pumps out spearmen and archers on its own..... Which was my question.....

	04-11-2002 08:19									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

You may suck, but that is not the issue. Some of that is by your own choice and you can fix it.

Wealth only sets for one turn and then reverts to the other idiot assignment instructions that you have left in place with your governors.

The cities are not producing wealth and then units in the same turn, it takes several turns of being asleep at the wheel for this effect to occur.

I emphasize again, get off the wealth kick and learn to play the game.

You'll have lots more fun and you won't have to say "I suck at playing this game" but perhaps 1/10th as often.

Here is a link to a game play strategy article that you need to read and learn to implement:


Improving Your Opening Play Sequences

Life will be better for you when you're done.

	04-11-2002 08:27									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Redstar,

You also need to snap to the reality here and stop trying to build wealth and get your idiot workers off of automation.

No competent human being could possibly be making these decisions that you are are complaining about if they have taken the first responsible step to learn how to play the game.

300+ workers on automation is just absolutely inane.

Read the article.

I'm only being tough and straightforward here with you because you are so far off base and obviously wallowing in some of the worst aspects of the game without a clue as to what really needs to be going on.

Read the article. Start over at square one.

	04-11-2002 09:07									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

lol. You obviously are the one lacking in competence not to mention civility.

I can do what i want...telling me i should not automate the workers hardly does a thing to explain why the city manager is bugged.

As i said..i have over 300 cities under my control...i am way beyond needing to micromanage.

all i need is a simple explanation as to why the city manager is building workers..when they are set to never.

and why nuke plants are built when i have hoover dam wonder.

Now get a clue and leave this thread since you have no useful contribution and your flames are banal.

git boyo!

and before you slink off...i use wealth only when everything else has been built in the city.

I have over 280 modern tanks/ 45 ICBMs/100 mechs/ 130 artillary radar..blah blah...so i hardly need to make units.

Last edited by Redstar on 04-11-2002 at 09:13

	04-11-2002 09:40									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Redstar: Flames need fuel

	04-11-2002 10:24									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

yep he sure did give me plenty of fuel to flame with didn't he )

	04-11-2002 11:23									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

yea that was totally uncalled for. i mean i wanna see him try to manage 300 cities and know what thats like. i dunno about him but when i get far in the game and i have too many workers i put them on automation too and there no reason to get flamed for that. and i never even have more than 50 cities. i can only imagine what a pain managing 300 cities would be like.

	04-11-2002 12:00									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Being a devoted reader of these forums, I have read number of cracker's posts. Its kinda his specific style to sound like the most knowledgeable scholar teaching a silly kid... I am sure it never is personal and it is always driven by good intentions (he wants you to enjoy the game as much as he does - that's why he spent time downloading and inspecting your savegame). You better listen to him, even if he tells you something you did not want to know... he knows what he is talking about... focus on the content, not the form of his posts. He plays Civ3 in the most effective way, which may not be fun to many, but at least partial utilization of the principles he likes to push (I mean push... ) is almost inevitable even for players that just want to have fun without counting every single shield.

As for wealth, the solution to your problem is to contact your governor and specifically instruct him to produce wealth and wealth only (which you didn't do). On the City Governor screen, click the "Production" label (right next to the "General" tab) and... well, you'll immediately see what's wrong.

But even I would recommend seriously rethinking your overall strategy. Building wealth (and using governors) at this stage of the game really is woefully ineffective. If your savegame comes from a real game and not just as an example of the problem you described, then I guess you thought you were having budget troubles... but in this specific case, just setting the luxury slider to 0% will do the trick for you (there's absolutely no need to spend money on luxury, as you have lotsa temples and are playing on Warlord, which gives you content citizens enough in every city initially). Just try it... even at 0%, there will still be NO unhappy citizens anywhere at all.

As for the nuclear power plants being built in cities enjoying the benefit of Hoover Dam - that's no bug, nuclear power plants boost the production by 100%, while hydro power plants by 50% only...

Last edited by vondrack on 04-11-2002 at 12:08

	04-11-2002 12:30									#12
	Put an end to popups!

Cracker may lack a delicate touch, but if you read his article you will benefit. 300 worker is a bit much and auto workers is a bad thing before RR's are done. Once they start going into your cities to sit around, get rid of them. Join, sell or disband. Your workers cost 1 gold upkeep, keep capture ones as they are free. Keep how ever many you need to do new cities and clean up. I have heard a few talk about this managers bug, but have not seen it has I do not let the Ai manage my cities.

	04-11-2002 12:50									#13
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

i think you are confusing me with the 1st poster.

In my game, im in the year 2081 and have only a few squares left to develop of my land.

I'm playing on the biggest map before the limit was reduced...300 cities should indicate i am no where near the start of a game.

i have (had) 300 workers cause i needed tons. about 50% of those workers were captured from the enemy.

I also resent being told i am a newbie and know nothing..blah blah. He goes out of his way to insult the both of us and makes some grevious assumptions.

Now, why am i still playing in the year 2081? simple..i am allowing the enemy civs to build up so i can have a nice huge modern war. I had one earlier --but it was no contest as the enemy AI concentrated units in the hundreds and so a few nukes wiped them out.

But anywaz...this is all moot as the original question/observation has nothing to do with playing style. It has everything to do with the potentially "buggy" city governors producing workers when they were told NEVER to do this.

It also has to do with producing nuke plants while having hydro plants.

There is no excuse for being rude --'cept when flame retaliating.

	04-11-2002 12:59									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Redstar But anywaz...this is all moot as the original question/observation has nothing to do with playing style. It has everything to do with the potentially "buggy" city governors producing workers when they were told NEVER to do this.

Is this true even if you correctly set the "Production" section of the City Governor settings? The 1st poster did not have his preferences fully set - I downloaded his savegame game and had a look..

quote: Originally posted by Redstar It also has to do with producing nuke plants while having hydro plants.

See my previous post. A nuclear plant grants the city in question a higher production boost than a hydroplant. That's why it gets built.

	04-11-2002 13:12									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

yup as i say, i did it several times...the prefs.
It seems this only happens when all buildings are built and all unit types are set to never along with workers never.

so that leaves only wealth --set at sometimes.
So maybe its just tilting at the extreme end of the scale.

a hydro plant is more environmentally friendly +

an existing type should not be overwritten.

However, i can see now that this as a design choice rather than a bug. So that clears up that point alright.

	04-11-2002 13:35									#16
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Redstar yup as i say, i did it several times...the prefs. It seems this only happens when all buildings are built and all unit types are set to never along with workers never. so that leaves only wealth --set at sometimes. So maybe its just tilting at the extreme end of the scale.

Hm, such preferences seem to be something the designers did not think of at all. If you set Wealth to "sometimes", but everything else to "never", than it actually is like setting Wealth to "always"... and that can be done by setting Production to not managed and choosing Wealth on the City screen, IIRC... that might be why it was not addressed...

Does this happen only when every currently possible building has already been built or when every building has already been built (i.e. very late game only)?

	04-11-2002 13:45									#17
	Get a bigger avatar today!

i am not sure..i lean towards late game...because i have only recently noticed workers popping up.

the more workers i got rid of...the more cities started making them. This makes no sense x2 grr.

But so far, all cities (making workers) i have checked...have all the buildings (well except for the solar/nuclear plants).

Every time i change 1 city to make an ICBM (just to keep it busy and not make another worker), another fully developed city starts to make a worker.

	04-11-2002 23:43									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Redstar i think you are confusing me with the 1st poster. In my game, im in the year 2081 and have only a few squares left to develop of my land. I'm playing on the biggest map before the limit was reduced...300 cities should indicate i am no where near the start of a game. i have (had) 300 workers cause i needed tons. about 50% of those workers were captured from the enemy. I also resent being told i am a newbie and know nothing..blah blah. He goes out of his way to insult the both of us and makes some grevious assumptions. Now, why am i still playing in the year 2081? simple..i am allowing the enemy civs to build up so i can have a nice huge modern war. I had one earlier --but it was no contest as the enemy AI concentrated units in the hundreds and so a few nukes wiped them out. But anywaz...this is all moot as the original question/observation has nothing to do with playing style. It has everything to do with the potentially "buggy" city governors producing workers when they were told NEVER to do this. It also has to do with producing nuke plants while having hydro plants. There is no excuse for being rude --'cept when flame retaliating.

Sorry if I offended you and you are free to ignore anything I have said. I would only point out that you said you were producing 5 wokers a turn and had 300 already. What I said was valid and if it does not apply to you great. I can not image that all those workers can be used as the whole map should be RR by now. I agree there is no need to be rude. I try not to be and will apologize if I have been. The points are for anybody, those that already understand them will just pass on by.

	05-11-2002 00:22									#19
	Inflate your Upload Space

I did not mean to offend anyone directly either. I just tend not to pull any punches when something is obviously wrong and in your power to fix.

Expecting to earn brownie points when you have 300 cities in a Chieftain of Warlord game that you are artificially playing out to 2081 when you "still have a few squares left to develop" just reinforces my initial assessment that you really don't know what you are doing yet.

No insult intended, just a clean assessment.

A nominally competent player can easily have 300 cities in the early 1500's if that's all you measure success by.

A player with some focus and experience will know that the peak worker count should come somewhere between Steam Power and Replaceable parts and then should rapidly head toward zero. If you have a reasonable count of captured slaves (8 per every 8 to 10 to 20 cities) then your actual worker count should be at zero well before you enter the modern era.

The governors are well documented to be a bit flaky in many situations but when you combine them with repeated pilot errors you have a recipe for disaster as in both the games described in this thread.

Redstar,

You are bit hypersensitive here and have distracted things from the point. Your artificial game in 2081 AD has almost nothing to do with lorddread's game in the 500 BCs. Lorddread has a thousand things he needs to be doing other than building wealth and I outlined just a few of them.

The cities in these games are not building workers and other bogus stuff instead of wealth. The problem is that both the pilots are asleep at the wheel and leaving the cities set to build these other items when there are tools that will fix the problem AND the greater problem of blindly building wealth should be avoided.

Your game could be chalked up to scientific research. If you strapped a chimpanzee into a chair in front of civ3 and let him push buttons after 2050AD and after the whole tech tree has been researched, how long will the chimp keep pushing the buttons when he finds out there are no new bananas?

If the Chimp stops playing before you do then the research project has produced a publishable result.



Read the strategy articles and don't anger your best chances at rising above the sacrificial masses.

	05-11-2002 02:16									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

listen cracker..you've got some nerve to say the least. You compound your rudeness and ignorant posting with more of the same.

I am not in the chieften level so yet another strike against.

I was not bragging abvout having 300 cities...but merely having to stress that several times (edit
to underline this is not an empire just starting up.
It should also give a clue that large numbers of workers were required. 60 are still on tap to take care of pollution and terraforming future nuked areas and conquered land. If you want to micromanage 300 cities, well thats just lovely

You missed the original intent of this thread and so far have failed to acknowlege yourself passing judgements based on invalid assumptions.


I would suggest that you put aside your own obviously inflated ego, so you can see a thread for what it is.

so now i am deadly serious when i say take a hike because you are obviously unchanged in your rhetoric and belittling attitude.

I will ignore you in future as you have proven to me you are not worth listening to.

I will not just sit idly by and be insulted for no good reason.

edit: Don't want a caustic response? then try the art of civility.

Last edited by Redstar on 05-11-2002 at 04:26

	05-11-2002 02:36									#21
	city manager bug??? Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by cracker Lorddread has a thousand things he needs to be doing other than building wealth and I outlined just a few of them. The cities in these games are not building workers and other bogus stuff instead of wealth. The problem is that both the pilots are asleep at the wheel and leaving the cities set to build these other items when there are tools that will fix the problem AND the greater problem of blindly building wealth should be avoided.

Let's try this again!

Actually, Cracker, I am quite awake. I do not usually build a huge army until later on in the game. I am building wealth because I have a large outlay going towards research, and I have built almost all of the buildings that I want for now.

It is not that I have no clue as to what I am doing, it is a difference in playing style. A closer look at the game would reveal that I am playing on chieftan, a easy level. There are only 4 other civ's and I have no close neighbors. Therefore I don't need a larger army. I can concetrate on building up my knowledge which is what I was trying to do.

So back to my original question. Why do cities set on building wealth build spearmen and archers????

	05-11-2002 02:37									#22
	Put an end to popups!

Redstar, you merely have to add people like cracker to your ignore list (something I just did after reading this thread) and you will have a much more enjoyable Apolyton browsing experience. Trying to find some gems worth reading amongst such an obvious superiority complex is rarely worth the effort.

	05-11-2002 06:40									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

lol, he starts off his reply with "I did not mean to offend anyone directly either" and then proceeds to insult him even more...

	05-11-2002 07:40									#24
	Put an end to popups!

Guys, Cracker may sometimes come off a bit harsh, but he truly is a master.

I like seeing people experiment...

OT: I just don;t believe the governors work as advertised. I know that Firaxis has some kind of auto-game working for testing purposes... I'd love to play with it. I'd just chalk this up to the limitations of the game.

	05-11-2002 10:32									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by lorddread So back to my original question. Why do cities set on building wealth build spearmen and archers????

lorddread, I did answer your original question:

quote: Originally posted by vondrack As for wealth, the solution to your problem is to contact your governor and specifically instruct him to produce wealth and wealth only (which you didn't do). On the City Governor screen, click the "Production" label (right next to the "General" tab) and... well, you'll immediately see what's wrong.

This is what you have there in your game:

	05-11-2002 13:16									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Redstar I have units set to never and workers set to never for all cities (done several times since it sometimes takes a few tries to disable the music so i thought might be same problem) Anywaz, about 5 workers are produced every turn now. (EDIT: now down to 50 workers..so now i'm getting 12 workers per turn {rotating cities as i change production away from worker})

If you set your city governor to build wealth, the city will build the following:

Improvements like marketplace and bank
Wealth
And... workers (sigh)

This is no bug though. It's a designed feature I'm afraid.
Thats what Firaxis has explained.

Personally I find that annoying, because I have never had need for that worker produced in a city that shouldn't waste population and production on a worker, when I have my entire continent fully worked (and still have around 50 workers in stock). The citygovernor has a setting for building workers, so I would expect, that when thats set on Never for all cities, I shouldn't see a single worker constructed anywhere.

I have (like others) seen a tendency towards a certain number of workers per city so to speak. Having, say, 100 workers, then joining 25 to cities results in some governors around the empire to switch from building wealth to building workers.

That said: In this case the production of military units are, as Vondrack explained, caused by the settings for the Governor. But setting your cities on automation with wealth included will always yield a useless worker now and then. The only cure from our side is to fire the citygovernor .

Edit: Typo

	05-11-2002 13:28									#27
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Now you are talking, never use the automated gov.

	05-11-2002 18:58									#28
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

thanks firebird!

if wealth builds workers, then why have a worker option? Or at least the worker toggle should overide the other.

But ok, so that explains that also.

	06-11-2002 00:02									#29
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Redstar thanks firebird! if wealth builds workers, then why have a worker option? Or at least the worker toggle should overide the other. But ok, so that explains that also.

You'r welcome.
I could live with the worker toggle overriding the wealth toogle.

I don't want to rant or anything, but I have a very hard time seeing the logic in the way Firaxis did this, but perhaps it has to do with the way the AI works. If thats the reason I don't believe we will see it changed. It would be nice though. This one thing actually keeps me from using the governors!

	06-11-2002 01:26									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

Who says they had a reason?