04-11-2002 13:06									#31
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quote: I mean really, I don't know much but these things but something that is able to provide everyone somewhat equal wealth doesn't sound like anarchy at all.

Socialism is half of what anarchism is about. Anarchism without socialism is some bastardized variant of Randism.

	04-11-2002 13:09									#32
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quote: bastardized variant of Randism.

You say bad word. You try to confuse.

	04-11-2002 13:15									#33
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Bad word? Would you be referring to "bastardized" or "Randism"?

	04-11-2002 13:17									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Bad word? Would you be referring to "bastardized" or "Randism"?

I dunno, what do they mean?

	04-11-2002 13:19									#35
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bastardized = screwed up
Randism = a certain libertarian capitalist philosophy that has some "interesting" characteristics

	04-11-2002 13:23									#36
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anarchy is just the tyranny of chaos

	04-11-2002 13:25									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo bastardized = screwed up Randism = a certain libertarian capitalist philosophy that has some "interesting" characteristics

So when the people in this thread talked about anarchism, did they discuss about randism or anarchism then?
I still don't understand what you mean by anarchism. Democracy that will allow drugs whores and stuff, has no armies? What?

	04-11-2002 13:29									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I seriously doubt you have much historical knowledge of anarchist societies

I seriously doubt you have much historical knowledge.

Yes, yes, yes, we have all had our masturbatorial Lincoln Brigade halcyon days of wine, women, and ringing philosophical discussions late into the night. But unfortunately one day you graduate and then it's time to get a job and realize that "anarchism" is either this year's synonym for "erehwon" or the admirable but silly notion of all 5 year olds at the zoo who want to let the tigers out because "they look so friendly, and it's only those iron bars that make them mad."

As for crime: anarchy = no security of property or contract = no investment or research = MASSIVE poverty. So if poverty breeds crime (and I'm with you 100% on that one), then anarchism is the perfect recipe for the most crime-ridden society imaginable.

	04-11-2002 13:30									#39
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I though we were discussing anarchy, not anarchism...

	04-11-2002 13:32									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo There is absolutely no doubt most crime arises from poverty, directly or indirectly.

Then what's Winona Ryder's problem?

But you did say 'most'.

	04-11-2002 13:32									#41
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quote: So when the people in this thread talked about anarchism, did they discuss about randism or anarchism then?

Most people have absolutely no clue what anarchism is, so take your pick. And throw in a bunch of other completely different ideoligies.

I mentioned Randism to provide some sort of reference.

quote: I still don't understand what you mean by anarchism.

Libertarian socialism, to put it succintly. A society with little to no private and public authority. If you want a more extensive explanation, check out writings from Mikhail Bakunin (the guy in my sig), Emma Goldman, Peter Kropotkin, or a number of other people.

	04-11-2002 13:34									#42
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus I though we were discussing anarchy, not anarchism...

I'm not a big friend of dictionary, keep confusing me and I'm gone

	04-11-2002 13:35									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Anunikoba Then what's Winona Ryder's problem?

Poverty of talent.

	04-11-2002 13:36									#44
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quote: I'm not a big friend of dictionary, keep confusing me and I'm gone

Anarchy as in chaos, not anarchism as in the political philosophy.

	04-11-2002 13:40									#45
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quote: Yes, yes, yes, we have all had our masturbatorial Lincoln Brigade halcyon days of wine, women, and ringing philosophical discussions late into the night. But unfortunately one day you graduate and then it's time to get a job and realize that "anarchism" is either this year's synonym for "erehwon" or the admirable but silly nation of all 5 year olds at the zoo who want to let the tigers out because "they look so friendly, and it's only those iron bars that make them mad."

quote: As for crime: anarchy = no security of property or contract

Nope. I'm an anarchist as I've already mentioned, and I support police, courts, and prisons.

As for those that don't, in a socialist society, there would be minimal risk of properties and contracts not being protected.

quote: then anarchism is the perfect recipe for the most crime-ridden society imaginable

Yes, that must be why the societies I mentioned were so crime-ridden.

	04-11-2002 13:44									#46
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quote: I though we were discussing anarchy, not anarchism...

There's no difference. "Anarchy" has been hijacked by the authorities (it used to be used often) as a synonomy for "chaos," so anarchists generally prefer using the word anarchism.

	04-11-2002 13:45									#47
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I thought it was a synonym for chaos. It certainly seems to have been used this way in the first post.

	04-11-2002 13:53									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Libertarian socialism, to put it succintly.

	04-11-2002 13:55									#49
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There's nothing funny about it. Y'all were the splitters. Libertarianism originally meant anarchism.

	04-11-2002 13:56									#50
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I can start calling my TV a telephone and then laugh at everyone who still calls it a TV, it doesn't make it a telephone.

Socialism is impossible without central planning. That's the whole idea.

	04-11-2002 13:56									#51
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quote: I thought it was a synonym for chaos.

It's interesting how authoritarianism changes language. Anarchism was heavily criminalized in the US early in the century, and "anarchy" changes to "chaos."

quote: It certainly seems to have been used this way in the first post.

Then he should've used a more appropriate description for what he wanted to refer to, like feudalism.

	04-11-2002 13:58									#52
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No. Libertarianism came from a group championing individual rights. Socialism is the express idea of denying all individual rights.

Who do mean by "y'all?" The entire Libertarian party?!

	04-11-2002 14:01									#53
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quote: I can start calling my TV a telephone and then laugh at everyone who still calls it a TV, it doesn't make it a telephone.

People generally have no idea about political history. Ask your average person what a fascist is. Ask him what a classical liberal is. Just because he's ignorant doesn't make him right.

quote: Socialism is impossible without central planning. That's the whole idea.

Socialism is the worker control of means of production. That's the whole idea.

	04-11-2002 14:05									#54
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quote: Then he should've used a more appropriate description for what he wanted to refer to, like feudalism.

Or just chaos, though that's likely to evolve into feudalism eventually (if the society actually survives, that is).

	04-11-2002 14:07									#55
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quote: No. Libertarianism came from a group championing individual rights.

The phrase libertarianism originated in the 19th century as a synonym to anarchism. I can guarantee you that no one meant capitalism by that phrase in 1850.

quote: Socialism is the express idea of denying all individual rights.

Socialism is about worker liberty. It's true some variants of socialism don't hold to that ideal, but that irrelevent. I'm referring to socialism as it pertains to anarchism.

quote: Who do mean by "y'all?" The entire Libertarian party?!

Yep.

	04-11-2002 14:10									#56
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Ramo, if you insist on using different definitions than what is generally accepted, you're just going to confuse the normal people.

I don't want to get into a Socialism/Capitalism fight and I don't want to get into a semantics argument. I think you very well aware of what anarchy is considered to mean. It is the absence of government. The court system is a part of government. The police are a part of government. You can say, No no, I wouldn't call it government. Well good for you....

	04-11-2002 14:15									#57
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Libertarianism now means the combination of capitalism and individual social rights. And just like you can't go around using "liberal" as it was once used, you can't go back 150 years in the meaning of libertarianism. It means what it means now. Sorry if it makes you sad. You know what it means now, and you are purposely trying to stir things up and cause confusion...

	04-11-2002 14:16									#58
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If I insist on using bastardized definitions for everything, people just get confused. Like how people associate 20th centurly liberalism with 19th century liberalism. If I don't insist on using the right definition, my political movement would be tarred as "chaos."

quote: I don't want to get into a Socialism/Capitalism fight

I'm just pointing out socialism is about worker control, not state control. That's a very important distinction.

	04-11-2002 14:18									#59
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quote: Libertarianism now means the combination of capitalism and individual social rights.

In the US, that's true. In most of the rest of the world, libertarianism is associated with anarchism.

	04-11-2002 14:19									#60
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Fine. I will continue to view communism and socialism in the same light because group control is group control. I don't care what you call your group.