05-11-2002 12:57									#1
	Khufu is his name Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

and he's just in time. A Great Leader has emerged from the last Battle with France. The War is over with his generation. Russia has STC, England has MV and nobody has Theory of Gravity for NU.

There was some discussion about saving him for Industrualization and Sufferage, just before we start the next War.

We can also have him ready to make an Army incase of attack, we do have a couple of Elite Cav now.

Building the new Palace is also an option, but should be done AFTER the FP is built, so that the Corruption doesn't effect the FP build.

The discussion starts now.

E_T

Last edited by E_T on 05-11-2002 at 13:15

	05-11-2002 15:13									#2
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Army = Heroic Epic(More GL's) = Military Acadamy = Pentagon.

But since the war is finished and we may focus on internal stability and self reliance in science as well as the creation of further cultural dominance. This could lead us to saving our GL.

Or alternatively we could go to war with England to make good use of our Army.

	05-11-2002 19:33									#3
	GL Increase Your PM Length

I would like to have an army on hand, but there is something to be said for holding off and using Khufu to help give us a boost in our science research capability with Newton's University. We can't buy techs forever... or can we?

	05-11-2002 20:29									#4
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NU is not game critical. It only 'boosts' beaker production at host city. If we get it, fine, but it's not worth a GL. NU effects will be swamped by Hospitalizing and pop explosion of our numerous cities with libraries, universities, etc.

Stop and think. What will we need that worker armada after RR buildout and jungle clearing? We will need to keep a pollution cleanup gang, but other than that it's join cities that have the infrastructure and tile development in place.

Universal Suffrage is nice but if we can maintain access to many luxuries, it can be worked around.

Hoover's Dam is game critical to control, (but not necessarily to build). If push comes to shove, and it usually does about this time in the game, it is worth having a significant war over. In any event, Hoover's is too far down the road to hold a GL for.

So it's time for Khufu to "Be all that he can be". Go Army!

Meanwhile, the hawks need to decide where to have a 'border incident'.

The list (of potential targets) is long.

	05-11-2002 21:29									#5
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I still don't have a decisive opinion on the GL issue- using it as an army can have its benefits, as nz_upy said, but isn't there some wonder down the road that worth it?
And i also wonder- are we planning some war for the near future- probably not. So, we should save the GL for now, and use it when an opporunity arrives- GL use for an army as an excuse for war, is not the way!

	05-11-2002 21:49									#6
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Since the war is over, we have the ability to save the GL for something. This is good because I don't think that Newton's is worth using a GL for.

The most expensive item by far is the new Regular Palace, so perhaps that should be rushed as soon as the FP is complete. In the mean time, the site of our new Palace and build whatever is next on it's queue after Palace so it's not wasting shields.

Looking ahead to the Industrial ones : We ought to be able to build Hoover Dam on our own without a GL.

Theory of Evolution is also cheap for an Industrial Age wonder, so we shouldn't use the Great Leader for it.

Women's Suerfrage though due to it's timing is a wonder we probably can't build without the Great Leader. It's also only particulary useful if we are fighting wars as a Democracy because it reduces war werriousness.

Or if our plan is to win the game via Dominiation, we could pick army with the GL, and place 3 Calvary into it. Armies of Calvary are basically wants required to attack Infentry prior to Tanks so using this strategy, we would form the Army of Calvary now, use him ito lead off the next war, then start building both Heroic Epic and Military Acadmeny. (Take care to produce the MA in a highly productive city [after the Hospital & Factory.]) And keeping on producting Armies at the MA and forming 3 Calvary each in them. When the 3rd army is complete, build the Pentagon, expand the existing armies into 4 Calvary, but keep on building armies until Tanks are right around the corner.

Summary:

Pure builders : Palace

Pure Warmonglers: Army

Hybrid: Womens Sufferage

	05-11-2002 22:35									#7
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Our new palace and FP locations dictate future wars with Greece and England to optimize these locations.
We need to use this leader for an army. First of all, we can't hold him until The Hoover Dam because we'll probably be going to war with England or Greece before the necessary techs are researched, and second, we want to max out our options for MORE GLs in our next wars (at least two major ones).
Army and then Heroic Epic is the most reasonable option in my humble opinion.

	05-11-2002 23:21									#8
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The key to middle industrial assault is not Cavalry Armies but stacked Artillery. Based on results obtained in recent personal games I plan as follows:

Artillery attacks with 12 power and 2 rate of fire so against Infantry fortified in metropolis estimate

12*2
------------------ = 0.7 hit points per round
(12+10*2.25)

directed at troops with about half the rounds directed at citizens or buildings.

Thats about 3 rounds expended per hit point net or 12 to reduce an elite to 1 hp. I estimate 4 top line defenders so 50 Artillery will usually do the trick. Once reduced to 1 hp in cities or towns, whatever current top of line fast unit will be adequate. Heck, even Infantry has enough assault value to fill this role. Cavalry in the stack are utilized primarily for liquidating harrassing enemy units while the stack is traveling. Just remember to only engage targets that your Cavalry will be able to return to the stack after the attack. Avoid Cavalry Armies in the stack. Their blitz capability make it very difficult to stick to plan. A cavalry unit or Army left out alone away from it's Infantry will not last.

Lastly, you will need workers to build the rail supply line, and infantry to protect the stack and secure that supply line. Infantry Armies are ideal for stack protection.

And we have 3 catapults?

	05-11-2002 23:31									#9
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Edited: nevermind.

	06-11-2002 00:11									#10
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I think 3 seperate Infantry units are prefered to an Infantry Army.

There's two problems with placing Infantry into armies:

1. We lose the ability to upgrade them to Mobile Infantry with Computers.

2. A stack of Infantry is just as formidable trying to attack as Infantry in armies. If anything it's more formidable when seperate (except against a Calvary army, but AI armies are usually full of stone age units.)

By placing Calvary into armies instead we don't lose any upgrades. (Can't upgrade Calvary) and an army of 3 Vetran Calvary can beat up a mostly intact Infentry without loses where Calvary attacking sepreately get eaten up.

Yes, we should use use Artillery, but 50 units of them seems over the top when you consider that Bombers become adviable at the end of the industrial era and the fact that we are a Democracy.

I'd call for Calvary production itself to stop when we have Mobile Parts, and we just would be building the armies & placing Calvary units in them.

quote: Originally posted by roadcage Lastly, you will need workers to build the rail supply line, and infantry to protect the stack and secure that supply line. Infantry Armies are ideal for stack protection. And we have 3 catapults?

	06-11-2002 01:14									#11
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I'm leaning towards army, since I think we should have at least 3 more wars in the course of the game (England, Greece, and Zulu).

Does anyone know just how much Univ. Sufferage affects War Weariness in a Republic? In a Democracy?

	06-11-2002 02:17									#12
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If the war lasts long enough to where citizens are saying "Give Peace a Chance", roughly half of the percentage will be doing this with Womens Sufferage.
(This is cumulative with Police Station.)

I think that having it also may delay the turn in which the "Give Peace a Chance" protestors appear.

An annexation of Zulu land would be too quick for Women's Sufferage to help.

Women's Sufferage might help with England, if only beause if we attack England first, she may bring in some allies.

Women's Sufferage almost definately helps in a war with Greece, because the Greeks are almost guartined to get allies.

	06-11-2002 04:21									#13
	Tanks for the Memories Put an end to popups!

Sufferage is only good if we fight interminent wars, else we'll have to go Commie. By the time we get Sufferage, our Cavalry will be less useful , and with Hoover and tanks, we'll want to fight alot.

A few libraries are as good as Newton's.

Using an army to create HE is only good if we get another army before most civs get nationalism, else at 80 shields/Cavalry, our GL could cost more than he saves.

That leaves ToE and Hoover, and since ToE takes 4 Industrial techs, and Hoover 6, even though we'll probably pre-build a "Palace", we still don't have to choose until the Industrial Age.

	06-11-2002 04:33									#14
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We should create an Army, obliterate the English, and use their ports as a jump-off point to the Zulu homeland. An army of Cavalry will decimate the opposition. Let us worry not about the alliances of the world, for they are all weak and ready to be crushed under our heels. If it came to it we can conscript soldiers to defend our borders while we mercilessly attack the foul English and Zulu.

Let us not waste Khufu on a mere wonder, let us use him to our advantage in an Army of cavalry.

	06-11-2002 05:26									#15
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quote: Originally posted by zeit GL use for an army as an excuse for war, is not the way!

Oh it most certainly is, sir.

The peaceniks and builders have had their way on this issue multiple times in the past. I hope not this time.

I lend my voice to the chorus who say that it is high time for an Army, a successful battle, and the Heroic Epic.

	06-11-2002 05:32									#16
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I have wanted an army for a long time.

GO ARMY!

	06-11-2002 07:23									#17
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I say save him for Theory of GRavity. If timed correctly, we could get a crucial science boost over everyone else

	06-11-2002 08:56									#18
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For lack of any good wonders coming soon, I say army. Hopefully we can fit in one more Cav war before heavy defenses come in to play.

	06-11-2002 09:27									#19
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quote: Originally posted by roadcage 50 Artillery will usually do the trick.

50? I think you have an extra 0 there.

Or at least I HOPE you do.

I hope no poor President or SMC has to worry about moving 50 Artillery around.

	06-11-2002 09:40									#20
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt 50? I think you have an extra 0 there. Or at least I HOPE you do. I hope no poor President or SMC has to worry about moving 50 Artillery around.

Don't worry; there's a great thing called the j key.



It's doing the actual bombarding that will be a killer.

	06-11-2002 13:05									#21
	Remove this text

The 50 Artillery is not a typo. You will need about that many to downsize 4 Infantry fortified in a metropolis. (more if it the city is on a hill)

Moving them with the -Ctrl-J is cool.

Be sure you have animations and sound enabled.

You can almost dance to the repetitive sound as the stack creaks into position.

But as mentioned by others, the actual firing is the pits. Prior to firing, have one of the fast units move in next to the city so you can see the effect. Once the hit points are gone, if you are planning to keep the city, continue firing to downsize the population. This works much faster than starving!

	06-11-2002 22:34									#22
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I've never seen the AI smart enough to keep a stack of four Infentry together.

The slightest bait presented, and half the Infentry abandon cities and start a wild goose chase.

	07-11-2002 00:19									#23
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I don't bait, I overwhelm. I did the math on 4 defenders because that is what I see more often than not. the AI's rarely send out infantry. And when they do come out, what I see is lower shield cost attack pieces like Longbowmen and rarely Cavalry. Russia is different. They typically have Cosacks and are do not hesitate to commit them. And they usually go for the supply line rather than the stack.

	07-11-2002 01:03									#24
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Roadcage, which version are you on?

Both me and this game is on 1.21f.

Thinking back, in earlier versions the AI did use Infentry defensely. (In fact, exclusively so)

With 1.21f though as soon as any war starts, something like half the Infentry mode are changed to offensive. Other trigures (fresh meat spotted with no offensive unit around) can also trigure more to switch to offensive.

No Infentry in an offensive mode ever switches back to defensive mode.

Perhaps 1.29f changed this. (I haven't gotten around to geting that huge patch yet; I'll either get it Thanksgiving or Christmas.)

Baiting the AI allows fewer units to be used to accomplish objectives, which is always important for Democracy/Republic. I've always had higher tank / modern armor production under a Democracy than under Communism as well, so I prefer to be in Democracy as much as possible during wars.

Simply beating the AI over the head with more units is more AI-like.

Basically the only time I've seen an efficent use of AI force is when I once saw the Russians land 8 Infentry units from a Transport onto a one city island when I only had 1 Battleship in the area (which killed the Destroyer escort but couldn't attack the Transport in time.)

	07-11-2002 01:57									#25
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Usually for offensives I have about 10artillery that are divided in various way. Usually I'll use artillery to help some calvary attacks and send the tanks on a blitkrieg through enemy territory, massed tankes still overwhelm infantry. Obviously for heavily defended locations I will bring in the artillery to soften up the defenders, even with tanks. Honestly I don't have a strategy for radar artillery because my games never get to that point. I either win before then with diplo or spaceship. Even though I actively use the military I have only won once through domination.
Aggie

	07-11-2002 02:14									#26
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*aggie for prez!*

	07-11-2002 02:31									#27
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quote: Originally posted by roadcage I don't bait, I overwhelm. I did the math on 4 defenders because that is what I see more often than not. the AI's rarely send out infantry. And when they do come out, what I see is lower shield cost attack pieces like Longbowmen and rarely Cavalry. Russia is different. They typically have Cosacks and are do not hesitate to commit them. And they usually go for the supply line rather than the stack.

I have also seen quite a few Longbowmen running around, makes me laugh, but still see infantry in offense along with Cavalry. And most often they avoid your stack as if it were the plague, instead aiming for any cities you have taken.

But, yes, it is not all that uncommon in 1.21 to see a metropolis with 4 Infantry, and maybe even an artillery or two. More often, I run into 2-3 Infantry and 1-2 Spear, though.

	07-11-2002 02:53									#28
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I have not noticed a difference in behavior between v1.21 and v1.29. But that is just my personal observation. To some extent this must be taken with a grain of salt as I have much more v1.21 data than v 1.29 data. Your results may vary.

	07-11-2002 05:53									#29
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The bug in 1.21f was that any unit with a defensive flag that was upgraded into a unit that could be offensive switched to the offensive flag, even if the unit could also be defense. Hence the swarms of infantry that the AI attacks with in 1.21.

Haven't played 1.29 much, so I don't know how many fast units they build with this bug fixed.