06-11-2002 07:33									#1
	Imperial Dip 50: Fall 1874 Results Got spare money?

There we go, check for mistakes
builds due friday

Dutch (2 disband)
F Mld H
F E.Indian-Cey (move fails)
F Amn H
F Jva H (unit dislodged and disbanded)
F Ngu H (unit dislodged and disbanded)

Austria (1 disband)
F WMed H
F Crs S F WMed
F Tyr S F WMed
F Lyo S A Mar
A Pie S A Mar
A Mar H
A Rom H
F Nap H
F Sic H
F Adr H
A Mos S A Wrs
A Wrs S A Mos
A Glc H
F Ber S A Kie
A Sil S F Ber
A (eastern france) S A Mar (support cut)
A Bav H
A Kie S A Hol
A HOl S A (eastern france)
A Sax S A (eastern france)

China (Defiant) (1 build)
PRM S GRG
OMS S GRG
ORN S BKH - KHV
KSL - BKH (move fails)
KRA - KSL (move fails)
KSH S BKH
TIB S KSH
IRK - KRA (move fails)
VLA H
F-KAM S F-SAP - KURIL
F-KURIL - IZU
F-EDO S F-SAP - KURIL
F-YELLOW S F-KURIL - IZU
F-CRL S F-IZU - BISMARK
F Izu-BISMARK
F-PHILIPPINE S F-LUZON - LUZ (support cut)
F-LUZON - LUZ (unit dislodged and destroyed)
F-SCHINA - SUNDRA (move fails)
F-FM S F-PHILIPPINE
F-ECHINA S F-PHILIPPINE
A-CCH H
A-SIA H
A-BRM H
A-YUT H

To CSA: you illiterate backward mexican sucking lowlifes, fight me on you own without your lady

support.
To Mexico: Be a man and do what CSA can't do by themselves, take me on 1-1, cowards.
To England:it looks like it is you and i to the end.
To Turkey: Just like Japan you will die in the end.

Turkey (Orange) (0 builds)
A Teh S A Afg - Khv
A Afg - Khv (move fails)
A Ban - Afg (move fails)
F Hdr (nc) S A Oma
F Red - HoAfrica
F Som S F Red - HoAfrica
F Ken S F Red - HoAfrica
A Asw S A Sud - Dar
A Sud - Dar
A Cai - Tbq (move fails)
A Trp S F Tun
F Tun S A Trp
F Ionian - Adr (move fails)
F Aeg - Gr
A Rmn - Sr
F Black S A Sev - Grg
A Sev - Grg (move fails)
A Bku S A Sev - Grg
A Tbr - Arm
F Sey S F M. Channel - W. Indian
F M. Channel - W. Indian (unit dislodged and destroyed)

CSA (RUFFHAUS) (1 build)

F Greenland - Barents Sea (move fails)
F Northern Passage supports F Greenland - Barents Sea
F Barents Sea - Norway (move fails)
A Iceland - hold
F Norwegian Sea supports F North Atlantic Ocean - North Sea
F Edinburg supports F North Atlantic Ocean - North Sea
F London supports F North Atlantic Ocean - North Sea
F North Atlantic Ocean - North Sea (move fails)
F Dublin - North Atlantic Ocean (move fails)
F North Sea - Rouen (move fails)
F Nantes F North Sea - Rouen
A Rouen - Metz (move fails)
A Paris supports F Valencia - Marseilles
A Bordeaux supports F Valencia - Marseilles
F Valencia - Marseilles (move fails)
A Toledo supports F Gibraltar - Valencia
F Gibraltar - Valencia (move fails)
F Strait of Gibraltar supports F Gibraltar - Valencia
F Morocco - Algeria
A TWR supports F Morocco - Algeria
F Canary Islands - Morocco
A Azores Islands - hold
F Sargasso Sea - Canary Islands
A Cape Verde Islands - hold
A FZZ - Tubruq
A ELJ - TIR
A MDO - ELJ
F Grain Coast - Monrovia
F Gulf of Guinea - DMK
A Washington State - hold
A Alaska - hold
F Anchorage supports F Bering Sea - hold
F Bering Sea supports F Westerlies - hold
F Westerlies supports F Hawaii - Western Pacific Ocean
F Hawaii - Western Pacific Ocean
F Equatorial Countercurrent - Bismark Sea (move fails)
F Bismark Sea - Phillipine Sea (move fails)
F Luzon - Luzon Strait
F Mindanao supports F Luzon - Luzon Strait
F Sunda Sea - South China Sea (move fails)
F Celebes Sea - Borneo
F IJA supports Mexican F Coral Sea - New Guinea

Press:
RICHMOND, VIRGINIA - April 17, 1873 - After a briefing given by one of
General James Longstreet's top aides President Ruffhausdeclared that the war
in Europe will be over soon. Reports indicate that the demoralized Austrian
troop base has grown weary from the guilt hanging over their head after years
of committing attrocities called ethnic purges or 'cleansing' as the barbaric
thugs refer to it.

Additionally one wonders how long the greedy English beggars will continue to
starve while Austria hordes foodstuffs that go underutilized. Of course
many letters home from sailors stationed on the British Isles have complained
about such English cuisine such as 'bangers & mash', 'fish and chips', and
'steak and kidney pie' that the local lasses serve up at supper time.
Fortunately their plump rumps keep the lads warm in the evenings.

In the Pacific Ocean theater Admiral Faragut continues to laugh at the
Chinese naval bumbling. The commander of the Pacific Fleets openly declared
that only an idiot would put South China Sea at risk as the the 'junkers' did
last spring. The Admiral praised the efficiency with with the Mexican navy
has conquered the coastlines of Australia and Southern Africa. He then
theorized that certainly India and Southeast Asia are next to fall to Mexican
might. Faragut did have some complaint with respect to the Mexican sailors
lingering in the Western Pacific Ocean, and indicated that if 'Speedy
Gonzales' didn't awake from his seventh siesta, and move along to the
Marshall Islands, that he was personally going to apply the lash to his undry
rear.....



PRESS:

Proud to support the mighty CSA, one fleet at a time.

Crushing the hapless Turkish forces, one province at a time. I am enjoying
being able to make it hurt.

English days are numbered. One of these days the cross-eyed chinaman will
see your underbelly.

The Dutch always choke in the big one.

Confucious say, "Man who build too many fleets, flounder in his own wake."

Mexico (three builds)

1. F W. Pacific - MHL
2. F Kirbati - SW Pacific
3. F A. Pacific - Barrier
4. F Drake - A. Pacific
5. F SW Pacific - Coral
6. F A. Atlantic - Good Hope
7. F B. Current c A RDJ - DML
8. A URU holds
9. A RDJ - DML
10. A PRA holds
11. A AGL - RHO
12. F NE Trades s F M. Atlantic
13. F M. Atlantic s F S. Atlantic
14. F S. Atlantic c A RDJ - DML
15. F Good Hope - M. Channel
16. F TRN s F Good Hope - M. Channel
17. A BOT s A RHO - MOZ
18. A RHO - MOZ
19. A CNG s A MOZ - KEN
20. A MOZ - KEN
21. F MAD s F Good Hope - M. Channel
22. F A. Indian s F W. Indian
23. F SRW s CSA F CELEBES - BOR
24. F JAVA - ANDAMAN
25. F Timor s F SE Trades - JVA
26. F SE Trades - JVA
27. F Barrier - SE Trades
28. F CEL - JAVA
29. F Coral - NGU
30. F QUE s F SW Pacific - Coral
31. F PRT s F Barrier - SE Trades
32. F W. Indian s F NE Monsoon - SEY (support cut)
33. F NE Monsoon - SEY (move fails)
34. A SAU - NTR

England (the orange one) (0 builds
F-Skg S F-Nor
F-Hlg > North (move fails)
F-Den S F-Nor
F-Nor S F-Den (support cut)
F-Baltic S F-Den
A-Fin S A-Stp
A-Stp S A-Fin
A-Grg H
A-Oma H
F-Arabian > NE Monsoon
A-Krc S A-Kas (move fails)
A-Kas S A-Krc
A-Mds H
A-Hyd > Ben
F-G.Manaar > Cey (move fails)
F-Sum H
F-G.Siam > Mls
F-Bor H
A-Sp S F-G.Siam > Mls

	06-11-2002 14:09									#2
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Why does Britain's move :F-G.Manaar > Cey fail?

	06-11-2002 22:46									#3
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bounce with the dutch

	07-11-2002 01:06									#4
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Um, when did the Dutch start sending in orders? Do we have a new player to negotiate with?

	07-11-2002 02:10									#5
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Both the austrians and the dutch are currently on defensive auto-pilot since nobody seems to want to take them over, meaning they only take strictly defensive moves. I have been doing this for the past several turns. This includes support-breaking moves and army movement to move into defense positon both of which the Dutch and Austrians have done for the past several moves. I thought I made this clear after I adjudicated the first set of results (although I was at fault for not doing so before that point).

	07-11-2002 02:28									#6
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Jesus Boskovich,
You and those damn squirrels.

	07-11-2002 02:58									#7
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'support breaking moves'???

Woah...all units hold and support I can see...but making moves for them? That's totally unfair...

	07-11-2002 06:46									#8
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Here is the Fall 1874 Map:

http://www.geocities.com/ruffhaus8/IMPERIAL/F1874.gif



As usual, I'll point out some obsevations noted while making the maps. Please check me for accuracy on the map, center/unit counts, and comments.

Orders:

Chinese A Bokhara (unordered)
Chinese F Sapporo (unordered) *
CSA F Bismark Sea (dislodged by Chinese F Izu Trench 2v1, and may retreat to Celebes Sea or Luzon)
CSA A FZZ - Tubruq (bounces 1v1 with Turkish A Cairo)
English F Arabian Sea - Northeast Monsoon (bounces 1v1 with Mexican F Northeast Monsoon)
English F Borneo (dislodged, destroyed)
English F Karachi supports A Kashmir (is valid)
English F Okinawa (unordered)
Turkish F Kenya (dislodged by Mexican A Mozambique 2v1, destroyed)


Supply Center/Unit Count

Austria - 20 supply centers/21 units: disband 1
China - 26 supply centers/25 units: build 1
CSA - 45 supply centers/42 units: build 3 (pending retreats)
England - 19 supply centers/19 units: no change
Holland - 3 supply centers/3 units: no change
Mexico - 37 supply centers/34 units: build 3
Turkey - 21 supply centers/19 units: build 2



*Boshko is allowing this unit to move to Kuril Trench because it was supported there

Last edited by RUFFHAUS 8 on 07-11-2002 at 07:00

	07-11-2002 17:00									#9
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Well, I'm sorry but I must protest about that - I accepted that the Dutch would support each other after the last time, but surely they can't MOVE anywhere...And anyway, who decides that the Dutch fleet in E.Indian should go to Cey and not support F-Mld for instance????? In this case, it seems to be the GM, who also has access to my orders beforehand

I'm sorry to harp on about this Boshko and I appreciate the work you put in to adjudicating this game, but that is just ridiculous, can nobody else see the HUGE FLAW in this system?? I refuse to play against the GM as well as all the other players, so perhaps you should start looking for a replacement Britain.

	07-11-2002 17:24									#10
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Orange_1, I sympathize with your position. And I don't have an answer for it. I had a problem with MDR allowing the Dutch and French units in civil disorder to retreat. When Snowfire took over we saw similar, and yet increasingly sympathetic reasoning to the CD nations. I expressed my displeasure, but deferred to his authority as the GM. When SnowFire left and Boshko came in the CD powers became even more active. I think that if you look, you will see that I again disagreed, but deferred.

I guess what I am saying is that I know how frustrating it is to be dealing with this, because I (along with Mexico) have been navigating thes lingering units for several excruciatingly slow turns as they blockaded the way to my (our) target. And while it's not right now, it isn't all that inconsistent with what the rest of the board has been dealing with. Austria is making similar moves in it's state of CD.

All I can say, is that this is how Boshko GMs. He's also allowing unordered units to move because they had support/convoy orders referencing the forgotten unit. I have mentioned my disagreements several times with this as well.

In summary, these examples are a clear example of why I take a hardline appraoch to NMRs and abandonments. I don't like being a power hungry *******, it's just that 'all units hold' is the ONLY fair way to deal with NMRs. In trying to save the game with compassion with the abandonned nation, the game is further damaged by the confusion of how the CD nations will act in absence of a player.

JI have nothing to assuage your frustration, but to offer that you should just be glad that Boshko isn't inserting *enters sarcastic mode* ROUGH HOUSE 9* in as the Dutch player at the last minute.

	07-11-2002 18:14									#11
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Thanks Ruff, glad someone agrees. I'm not saying I'm the only one to suffer from this, it's just I haven't paid all that much attention to the CD'd countries' activities when it hasn't involved me.

And yes, I was willing to accept that units could support each other even though I disagreed. And I could even possibly accept the idea that a unit would move if supported by someone else (altough this seems a sure-fire way of manipulating a NMR power for your own gains and what happens when more than one person tries to support the same unit to different places?). But anyway, I digress.

However, nobody supported the Dutch unit to Cey, so therefore the GM has decided the unit should go there as opposed to supporting another unit or moving somewhere else - so what is the rule on that? Units support each other unless someone has supported them to move somewhere or somebody has ordered an attack on one of their SCs??? How dodgy is that!!

I'll play in a game when I don't agree with all the rules as long as someone actually tells me what the rules are!!!!! I refuse to accept the GM can decide where units should move when he also has my orders - that's just downright unfair.

	07-11-2002 19:49									#12
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EXCUSE ME!
But CSA and Mexico, where art thou does your "target" lay. Better not be behind the Chinese wall, you inbreds.

	08-11-2002 01:23									#13
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Build fleet HK, thanks

	08-11-2002 02:40									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Keep building junk, and we'll keep sinkin' it!

	08-11-2002 02:43									#15
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orange1 - I'm with you on this one. A GM making moves for a nation in civil disorder is as if the nation was controlled. The idea is that nations in civil disorder have NO LEADERSHIP. While all untis hold is the ideal way to go with a NMR situation (and CERTAINLY a Civil Disorder situation) I see NO reason to have units actually making moves, while I can somewhat understand all units hold and support...

...I think this is absolutely ridiculous, regardless of how it affects me, and would argue that the move to Cey should be updated as succeeding.

	08-11-2002 02:57									#16
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Come own now people! I don't like the situation either. But Boshko announced that this was how he was handling it, and no one b!tched the last two seasons when when Dutch and Austrian units were acting under GM control. And no one b!tched when the GM made orders for A Mecca - Sudan, and F Sapporro - Kuril Trench when these units should by rule be in civil disorder because no orders were submitted for them.

I'm not agreeing with it, but there was a precendent and commentary from the GM that this how he was acting well BEFORE this deadline. And whatever you say about how Boshko's handling things, he's consistent about it. And it has been going on since Snowie was GM. You guys just haven't been dealing with it until now.

	08-11-2002 03:33									#17
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I haven't seen the GM physically make moves for anyone. I was under the impression it was hold and support only...has this occured before?

Any order for a NMR nation other than hold or support another unit is unacceptable in my mind...

	08-11-2002 03:34									#18
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oh...as for A Mecca I had no problem leaving it where it was (Mecca) because I didn't order it correctly. It simply was in Sudan on the map...I didn't really think about it. Can't blame me for that one, I certainly didn't ***** to get it there.

	08-11-2002 05:28									#19
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It's not about you, orange. No one said that you did anything wrong. That unit in Sudan was on the map because Boshko as GM said it should be. I mentioned the lack of an order for the unit in the notes that I provided with the map. My point is that no one (including you) objected to it being there, since in effect it NMR'd.

And yes, the units have been moving (or trying to) for some time now.

My position/preference on civil disorder nations and NMRs is and always has been 'all units hold, retreats OTB, no builds, and disbands according to the original game. Attempts to be 'fair' always wind up irritating someone. This game and the CGN Imperial game are two landmark examples of why the NMR policy provided in the Diplomacy rule book is the best way to handle absent/missing players.

Right now we are lucky to have Boshko stepping in as a GM. Okay, I know that Britain and Turkey are not feeling lucky at all and would like this over ASAP (i have some suggestions on how to facilitate that by the way), but from the standpoint of completing the game, we are lucky to have someone to step in in take on the task. That doesn't mean that I like the way things are going with the Dutch and Austrian units, but we've all had to deal with it.

	08-11-2002 08:44									#20
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Look, I simply thought these units were in "turtle mode". I did not notice them moving until this turn. That is why I mentioned it. It simply will not matter next year because I will make a point of destroying any that are near me.

	08-11-2002 09:42									#21
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The units have been moving for a couple turns if you look at the last few threads. Its not the best situation there is but its what I'm doing currently as the the best of a bad situation since things would be imbalanced rapidly if the Austrians imploded without a fight (the dutch don't really matter at this point) since they're just about dead.
What I did in the past is have random people make up orders for units on the cust and this often resulted in them making successful and tactically sound attacks, but I kept on not getting responces from people or had people telling me they were too busy, so I decided to go with this and once I started a couple turns ago I decided to continue.

If you want to grab a new GM that's fine with me, this map is a pain to adjudicate in any case.

	08-11-2002 19:59									#22
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Boshko is doing a very good job and if he said it in the beginning it is nobodys fault but our own whether we agree or not, we must object when he declares his rule basis not after if finally affects some of us. I DO NOT WANT A NEW GM.
I suggest if there is a quest for a new GM this game goes DIAS.

President Ruffhaus 8th, of CSA,
If it wasn't for your little, puny, slithering taco eating ally, I would be visiting the Richmond area and eating lobster off your coast, at your expense.

	08-11-2002 20:44									#23
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if you highlight the smileys at the end there with your cursor, they become 'Chinese'

	09-11-2002 00:15									#24
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since Snowie was GM.

I'd just like to remind you all that while I do in fact prefer Boshko's system, even without your prompting I was willing to do an "all units hold" thing. The problem we had was that I don't believe all units hold includes "dislodged units disband themselves" as that is even more disruptive, and if you attack a unit and let it retreat into your own supply center, tough. And I even conceded on that point. So I don't know where you're getting this precedent from, RUFFHAUS- all CD nations were holding when I was GM too, and their retreats ended up being boring & bland to nearby controlled SCs.

In any case, the main issue here is CONSISTENCY. The reason I was willing to do that was because that was the way MDR did it. And I changed my ruling on the retreats because Gerwald made his moves under a false assumption. I haven't been following this lately, but Boshko, did you at least tell them that these CD nations should be treated as fully-functioning, attacking entities? If they knew in advance exactly what they could do, then too bad for them, IMHO. If you didn't tell them this (and then the moves were made under bad assumptions not dispelled by the GM), then I think they have a point.

Just my two cents.

	09-11-2002 05:40									#25
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SnowFire, the rules for civil disorder established in the game by Avalon Hill many years ago call for dislodged units to go OTB. So it's not so simple to say "tough crap, you made him retreat." And honestly, SnowFire I never knew what was to be expected from the CD nations while you had the game. I pretty much had to accept it as it came down.

I don't mean to sound ungracious towards you or Boshko at all. I am very thankfull for both of your efforts.

However, thes problems we are seeing here in Dip 50 and at CGN are the problem that I have with GMs that think they are saving the game by making up their own rules. The problem is consistency. And because the Boshko/SnowFire/CyberGnu methods aren't written down clearly anywhere, and don't consider numerous game situations as they arise, they is always confusion and inconsistency.. Rules dealing with retreats and adjustments are also ignored or ambigulous. Also these systems despite their intent are anything but fair. Somewhere someone is always getting the short straw. Maybe this is true with the Diplomacy rules too, but at least those are written down, and with static units their are no suprises. At least you can plan around what the CD nations will do.

Defiant, sorry Charlie, no DIAS either. Anyone who wants to quit can get out, but there's no no draw vote from me. Centers are still changing hands and units are still moving. Yours are moving back or to the bottom of the sea.

	09-11-2002 20:09									#26
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I already sent this to Boshko, but since I'm the only one with a retreat:

F Bismark Sea retreats to Luzon