06-11-2002 08:55									#1
	The failed party Got spare money?

Election results are just coming in, so things are still unclear, but I have a very bad feeling that the Republicans wil gain control of the senate, keep the house, and that democrats will win the govenorships.

This is a terrible outcome in my opinion: BUsh will be able to pass more of his agenda and judges, while the democrats will get the wonderful job of handling the implosion of state budgets in the next few years.

Now, Let Jimmy and Fez and other gloat and dance around and be obnixious: I am sure I would not be very likable to them if the democrats swept everything. At the same time, in my opinion this is a horrible possible outcome and bodes badly for the US. But I do not blame voters (you never can), This is a huge failure by Democrats, a huge one. The democratic leadership over the last 2 years has been utterly spineless and without principles. I hate the principles of this admin, but at least they have some.

Bush is a man that won only because more votes for Gore were deemed invalid than ones for him. Yet the democratcs never sought to savage a man who had 0 mandate, in fact, less than zero mandate. They did nothing to derail the tax cut: many went along, and even during this election most backed it. After 9/11 the allowed the santification of Bush and the growth of his cult of personality. What have they done with their control of the Senate? At best, they fought to block his judges, but on most issues have fought cheap battles with no aim, such as the one over homeland security , yeah, we back this idiotic idea, as long as the jobs stay union....oh, you don't want them to be union? Then we fight! They sought only soundbites about corporate responsibility, then just sat and did nothing as Mr. Pitt and the industry went along to undermine all 'reform'. it was not democrats at all that have forced Pitt out: most dems. would have happily let him stay.

The democrats have shown no vision for the country. Were Bush is popular, they back him. On the issues that Republicans are weak on, all they do is talk, but never take action. You don't win by fightign only to save your petty hide, you win by fighting the good fight, and the democratic party simply has not done so these last foru years.

So, I will sit back and let the conservatives gloat. Let them. I think they are leading us down a terrible path, but most people will always go with the one that's at least moving, never with the one who just sits there like a lump.

	06-11-2002 08:56									#2
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:gloat: (Oh, wait. We don't have that smilie yet.)

But seriously, I think it's still way too early to call the entire election. I'll wait to gloat until, say, tomorrow.

	06-11-2002 09:00									#3
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well Durbin [D] won in Illinois, I have yet to hear if Republicans are winning the other Senate races...

I almost want to see the Republicans push their agenda. Hopefully, America will be smart enough to see past the bullsh1t and vote them all out in 2004. But the ultra-nationalistic flag waving propaganda will probably brainwash too many people for that to happen.

:sigh: (this should be a smiley too)

	06-11-2002 09:04									#4
	Suffering from ads?

They're a bunch of spineless sellouts. Who cares if they've lost? They deserve it. Maybe after a few more elections, if Ashcroft hasn't crushed all dissent yet, we might get the Libs or the Greens a sizeable portion of Congress.

	06-11-2002 09:05									#5
	Suffering from ads?

I can't understand why so many people would support the Republican platform. I grant that the vast majority of republican voters are probably ill-informed. But it makes me sad to think that so many people can be so indifferent to the condition of their fellow man. Of course the Democrats are little better. They have been more or less rendered impotent anyway, so even if they did win the actual result of this election would have been little different. The true villain in this election, as always, is the American system that only allows two corporate-sponsored parties the possibility of determining public policy.

	06-11-2002 09:05									#6
	Put an end to popups!

The Democrats need to get their asses whipped again and again until the clueless, self-absorbed "we preach to our own choir and screw the fact we've got no congregation" crowd that run the state and national party machines get ousted.

Once the handwringers are purged, then maybe a few centrist Dems will emerge with at least half a clue what resonates with the electorate.

Right now, the Democrats have nothing to offer, except a token clinging to the touchy-feely yuppie liberal left. They can't win the hard left, and they can't win the center, so we get the party of Barbara Boxer and Jesse Jackson.

The best thing that can happen for any Dem who thinks Bush's agenda is bad is to let him have control of the Congress. There won't be any excuses that way.

	06-11-2002 09:05									#7
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Given how whiny Democrats are sounding tonight, perhaps the GOP did pull off a stunning upset: no "midterm backlash."

Amazing.

	06-11-2002 09:09									#8
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monk
MtG

WHy can't we be more like Israel? They have the whole 'no confidence' vote thing. And they have multiple parties that are forced to work together to get things done instead of wasting time and money pushing hardline stances.

	06-11-2002 09:10									#9
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Eevn if the democrats hold the senate by one miserable seat, whats the point?

Most fo them already abcked Bush on the Tax cut (disaster 1) and the Iraq resolution (possible disaster 2). I have yet to hear a single democrat offer some sort of plan or idea for action, something to look forward to in the future. you don't need control fo the senate to hold up judges. you still need 2/3 (I believe) for a lot of seats, so as long as the dems have 41 solid seats, they can filibuster any really objectionalbe ones.

The republicans, to win this election, ahve also watered down lots of their ideas, specially on Social security, but still, only the admin. seems to have a plan. again, I think it is a hideaous plan: that right now we should have a national themesong, and it shoul be the one playing as the guy on the look out post on the Titanic looks out at the dark sea, and slowly notices this starge black shape there... But again, since the democracts have none, even if they keep the senate all they can do is stall the Bush plan, but its all still about the Bush plan.

	06-11-2002 09:12									#10
	Tired of ads?

However the Senate race turns out it is truely amazing that in an off year election after two years of economic turmoil the sitting President's party is holding its ground in Congress.

Has this ever happened before?

	06-11-2002 09:14									#11
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I don't think so jimmy... ahhh the power of flag waving propaganda...

	06-11-2002 09:16									#12
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I think Fox News is calling the Arkansas race for the Democrat, Pryor. But, as their website sucks, I'm getting my returns from CNN.com who hasn't called the race yet... though Pryor is leading 54-46% (38% of precincts reporting).

	06-11-2002 09:16									#13
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Given how whiny Democrats are sounding tonight, perhaps the GOP did pull off a stunning upset: no "midterm backlash." Amazing.

No, just utterly sad and frustrating.

I am a democrat simply because I despise (utterly and completely) significan portions of the Republican ideology. I know why they believe they are right, i just simply think they have their basic assumptions wrong about the world.

I am not an independent like other on this forum because I understand power and know that we have, and will have for a significant amount of time, a 2 party state since many of the political systems in theis country are buillt to favor the two main parties. Libertatians, greens, and centrist Independents don't have a chance, and won't for at least 20 more years.

I just bemoan the fact that the one practical alternative to the Republicans is run by such weak men.

	06-11-2002 09:18									#14
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You're right on Ge.

	06-11-2002 09:18									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick However the Senate race turns out it is truely amazing that in an off year election after two years of economic turmoil the sitting President's party is holding its ground in Congress. Has this ever happened before?

Not that i know. the last time a sitting president won seats in the house during an off year election was 1998 and Clinton, and he might have also won back some senate seat as well that year, I don't remember.

Perhaps this 'rule' of politics no longer applies.

	06-11-2002 09:54									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Sava MtG

Thank you for your endorsement. You've confirmed I was correct in my statements.

GePap - not 20 years, and not 200. The ideology of the Greens and Libs is too fringe, and there's no particular advantage to being both centrist and independent.

Sava's the personification of what's wrong with the Democratic party - blame flag waving propaganda, those evil Republicans, a vast right-wing conspiracy, whatever, and never mind that your world view, ideology, and approach to governance is out of touch.

The Democrats should have had a field day with the economy and the latest revelations about Bush's buddy Harvey Pitt and his fun and games with William Webster's nomination.

18 years ago, Mondale undid Gary Hart with "Where's the beef?" Right now, the Democratic party has undone itself with "Where's our balls?" The touchy-feely party is afraid to offer any vision or any sense of leadership, because that's just soooo white male. Ooooh.

Hey John - were you callin' me whiny?

	06-11-2002 09:58									#17
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Mtg: Read Sava's definition of evil. It's his second post, btw. I think he needs to get out of the house more, hmmmm?

Of course I'm not calling you whiny. I'm just saying that Democrats are whining, therefore Repubs. must be winning. When Repubs. whine, that means Democrats are winning. See?

	06-11-2002 09:59									#18
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Btw, Pitt resigned today. But I guess everybody knows that since there isn't a thread about it.

	06-11-2002 10:00									#19
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I'm a Dem, remember?

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(OK, outpost on the far right of the Dem party Southern Dem, but still....)

	06-11-2002 10:02									#20
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Btw, Pitt resigned today. But I guess everybody knows that since there isn't a thread about it.

But back in the days when the Dems were a real party, they would have had good attack ads on the economy before he got shoved off the train. They missed a prime chance to rub Pitt in Bush's face, and now it's gone.

	06-11-2002 10:04									#21
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Mtg: Read Sava's definition of evil. It's his second post, btw. I think he needs to get out of the house more, hmmmm?

Actually, I was thinking they need to repair the locks and make sure the bars on the windows are tight. He's been getting out unsupervised far too often lately.

	06-11-2002 10:06									#22
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Yes, but you're not a whiny Dem. If the Repubs were losing, Jimmytrick and Fez would be whining, but DanS and myself would (likely) not be.

	06-11-2002 10:13									#23
	Suffering from ads?

Well as a moderate Republican, I'm sure has heck not going to crow. While it may be looking good for the party on a national scene, the Democrats pretty much swept almost every major race in Illinois. Chicago now runs the state... probably as scarey to me as Dems feel about the federal government.

	06-11-2002 10:18									#24
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quote: Originally posted by GePap quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick However the Senate race turns out it is truely amazing that in an off year election after two years of economic turmoil the sitting President's party is holding its ground in Congress. Has this ever happened before? Not that i know. the last time a sitting president won seats in the house during an off year election was 1998 and Clinton, and he might have also won back some senate seat as well that year, I don't remember. Perhaps this 'rule' of politics no longer applies.

Check 1934.

	06-11-2002 10:19									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Sava I almost want to see the Republicans push their agenda. Hopefully, America will be smart enough to see past the bullsh1t and vote them all out in 2004. But the ultra-nationalistic flag waving propaganda will probably brainwash too many people for that to happen.

But the flag waving rightwing BS (US or Confederate flag, its all good) works dang well apparently. The Republican Senate canidate in Georgia won largely because he painted the Dem, Max Cleland - a veteran triple amputee, as weak on defense. What bullsh_t.

Americans are so stupid and prejudiced...my God.

	06-11-2002 10:35									#26
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Sava, you're hilarious. How much of a difference do you think there really is between the Republican and Democratic parties? Not very much. Waving the bloody shirt, huh? How many Congressional Democrats voted for the Iraqi Resolution? Us Americans think that our parties are these diametrically opposed entities representing yin and yang or whatever. In reality they are anything but. If we were in Europe, the Democrats would be called left liberal, the Republicans right liberal, they'd both be put around the center of the spectrum and would probably draw about a combined 20% of the vote, if that.

However, our system is so different from the European model that party tags don't mean all that much. Afterall, John McCain and Jesse Helms share the same party, as do Joseph Lieberman and Al Sharpton. Party label doesn't mean nearly as much as personality. Congressmen almost never vote on party lines, as they do in Europe. Your stereotypes about the parties are untrue for the large part. Get a grip. We have two large parties that are so moderate and inclusive that it is hard to get anything accomplished even if the same party controls the Presidency, the House, and the Senate. Personally, I belong to neither party, I didn't vote, and I don't really care too much who wins. I personally feel disenfranchised by our system. Both sides have almost identical messages, anyway. I just take joy in watching the Libertarians getting crushed .

	06-11-2002 10:36									#27
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Yeah, it looks like this one is in the bag. CNN says 213 R house seats to 194 D House seats, with 218 needed for a majority and 27 undecided. The Dems need to win 22 out of those 27.
The Senate is still too close to call, Rep have 47, Dems have 46.
THis election tho wasnt a resounding victory for the right, but it loooks like they will have power. A victory nonetheless.

	06-11-2002 10:56									#28
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Carver But the flag waving rightwing BS (US or Confederate flag, its all good) works dang well apparently. The Republican Senate canidate in Georgia won largely because he painted the Dem, Max Cleland - a veteran triple amputee, as weak on defense. What bullsh_t. Americans are so stupid and prejudiced...my God.

You know this stuff never fails to amaze me.

People say George Bush is stupid. People say Americans are stupid. George Bush is the immensely popular leader of the most powerful nation in the world.

God forbid we get smart huh.

	06-11-2002 10:59									#29
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The Dems lost because they refused to take chances. I can understand why they didn't (so close...), but it was a fundamental mistake. Also, to be fair, it's hard to be challenging from the Senate (much easier from the House).

The attacks were pretty tired. Didn't have the traction that they thought they would. The GOP didn't even get hurt on social security reform.

	06-11-2002 11:07									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The Dems are lossing because they didn't really stand for anything this election. The closest thing that you could say they stood for was "anti-Bush"... not a brilliant strategy with his current popularity.