06-11-2002 22:45									#1
	Fast Game Remove this text

First of all I don't really know what I am talking about. I wasn't a part of the Civ3 Democracy Game. However, I have been reading this thred trying to make sense of what is going on. From what I've read a game can last as long as 500 turns. So, even if there are only 3-4 Civs and they each get the save for only one day, then only two turns will pass in a week. 500/2 the game can last 250 weeks (5 years!!!!)! Let's be realistic, no one is going to stick with a game for that long. By then we will be playing Civ4.

I want to suggest something that you all are going to think is stupid. But think about it. This is the only way to get games completed in a timely fashion. Teams should only get the save for 1 hour. It is possible for a team to make this work with players all around the globe, and this would make teamwork much more important. It would be harder to organize for the teams at first. But after a while people would get into the groove of thing. At this pace a 500 turn, 4 team game can be played in less than three months, and a 500 turn 8 team game in a little over 5 months.

Give it a serious thought. Then tell me what you think. I really think this is possible.

	06-11-2002 23:00									#2
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Sounds like a step in the right direction, or rather a jump in the right direction , but maybe several hours will be reasonable?
with big enough teams work can be divided among members, and plenty of work can be done prior to the turn actually played.
I really don't know if this can work, i never really played such a grand game on MP...

	06-11-2002 23:15									#3
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double post. sorry.

	06-11-2002 23:16									#4
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If we want to make the game go faster then we should start be switching on Accelerated Production. I know many people don't like it, though....

You may well be right, BlueWaldo, but I don't think that letting each team only have the save for 1 hour is at all practical. That would mean that each team would play 6 turns a day (in a 4 team game). When would be the time to discuss what to do? When would be the time to sleep? People have to go to work too.... even with people from all over the world this wouldn't work IMHO.

However, I do agree that the game needs to move as fast as humanly possible otherwise we'll never get to the end. Speed is going to be very important to making this successful. People will have to realise that this is going to be completely unlike any of the normal DG games.

Maybe it won't work, but this is a worthwhile experiment.

	06-11-2002 23:19									#5
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I'm willing to bet we'll be able to get at least 4 turns done a week, and a possible 'turnchat' system could be implimented on weekends, where a team member from each team could quickly play a turn then cycle it to the next player, allowing 4, 6 or up to 10 turns to be played in one day as well.

In other words, the estimate of 2 turns a week is highly conservative, and I seriously doubt the game will ever move that slow.

	06-11-2002 23:26									#6
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quote: First of all I don't really know what I am talking about.

first off all, that's the best and most honest thread opener I've ever seen j/k

ot: for me, the object of the game, is not finish it, but to have some fun. And IMO the things surrounding the game are just as much fun (if not more), then the actual game itself.

Players will probably come and go. Yes, so what, this can be a good thing and happens in every 'movement'.

on a site note:
With TTA being so strong, I don't think the game will need that many turns anyhow

	06-11-2002 23:35									#7
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BlueWaldo : you have a point. 5 years is really unrealistic, we'll never make it. However, I don't think your solutions will really work, because it spans on a too long time (we'd have to agree on a 4 hours span )
Your idea is similar to turnchats IMO (even if discussions are located on the forum) : the actual decisions are taken on a short period of time.

In the SP DemoGame, I remember how hard it was to find a good compromise for 2 hours long chats, and I still don't understand how MWIA manages to be the prez at such a time for the turnchats.

Maybe your idea can work if we make our teams based on the geographic location, where it would be much easier to agree on a time to play. However, I don't think we want this.
I don't know if the SP demogamers still prepare orders beforehand. I remember however, that it was hard to implement at first, since most ministers decided on the fly during the chat. I fear such discipline will be difficult to implement within our teams too.

Also, your estimations aren't completely true : the first 30 turns or so, very little is happening, and we'll find a way to play them fast, not in 120 days. Plus, it's very possible factions get wiped out early (we now know the efficiency of the archer rush), which will reduce the number of days drastically.
Lastly, I suppose most of us use this DemoGame as a training ground to defeat CFC in the epic battle to come in a few months. I guess we'll simply stop playing (or at least put much less energy) in this here game once the multisite DG begins.


My suggestion is to organize turnchats in the early game, when there are about 2 units to move and one city to manage. Even if we can't translate a PBEM game into MP (I don't know), we could still do it in PBEM.

I picture such a chat like this :
-> Internal chat of team A decides what to do with their warrior, and end turns.
-> Team A leader sends the save to Team B leader, and says so on the common chatroom.
-> Team B leader explains the situation to his colleagues (no need to have the save each turn so early in the game) and moves the warrior.
-> Team B leader sends the save to Team C leader etc. etc.
An early round would last approx. 5 minutes with this method.
What do you think ?

	06-11-2002 23:56									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I picture such a chat like this : -> Internal chat of team A decides what to do with their warrior, and end turns. -> Team A leader sends the save to Team B leader, and says so on the common chatroom. -> Team B leader explains the situation to his colleagues (no need to have the save each turn so early in the game) and moves the warrior. -> Team B leader sends the save to Team C leader etc. etc. An early round would last approx. 5 minutes with this method. What do you think ?

That's basically what I was thinking of as well.
We'll just have to have common times... which will be most feasible on the weekends, but we may be able to develop some system like that that is acceptable during the week as well.

	07-11-2002 01:10									#9
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Is the SP Demogame, turnchats take forever because the map is SO BIG. If we play on a smaller map, the game will go more quickly.

I am also in favor of a turnchat system. Once during the week, and once during the weekend.

A representative (or group if possible) from each team shows up with orders for his team for five turns. While team A is making thier moves, Teams B C and D are discussing what to do. When Team A finishes with their turn, it goes to team B. Team B them makes its moves while team A discusses what its going to do next and teams C and D talk about what they are going to do.

Looking at the members of each team, it looks like each team has members who regularly (or semi-regularly) attend turnchats.

Besides, if we have set chat times, people will know what is going on when. Don't change the times. If one team cannot have any present, then simply play until its that teams turn and stop. hmmm... this is giving me another idea...

Once that team (the one who held up the last chat) is ready, they should play, but they must be ready to play by the time of the schdualed turnchat.

See? Use a PBEM inbetween schedualed (and set) turnchats. I can see everyone getting 10-12 turns completed in a week. Even more with the early going.

	07-11-2002 02:11									#10
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet If we want to make the game go faster then we should start be switching on Accelerated Production. I know many people don't like it, though....

Should the AP question be brought to a vote?

It would speed things up.

However, it does make the game a bit different.

Does everybody have experience with AP? I do, I play it occassionally. I don't mind it, since it means I can play a game quickly. But it does take away from the grand scale of the game.

thoughts?

	07-11-2002 02:15									#11
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A poll cannot hurt

	07-11-2002 02:19									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor A poll cannot hurt

You're quite right. There aren't enough polls here, are there?

	07-11-2002 02:28									#13
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*Gags*

Not Accelerated Production!

	07-11-2002 02:36									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Trip *Gags* Not Accelerated Production!

Well, if you don't like it then...

*Asleepathewheel demands a vote on Accelerated Production

	07-11-2002 05:42									#15
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If you are going to do this chat system then why use PBEM. Why not just setup a turn based game with no time limit.

Also I think the one hour thing could work. Everyone would be on a forum offering sugestions for the general strat. of their civ. Then someone would be asigned to play the game in each time slot where their civ has a turn.

	07-11-2002 05:47									#16
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Because with PBEM the game can continue without everyone having to be there. That and because any other MP mode besides PBEM doesn't work for me.