07-11-2002 04:54									#1
	Construction Shack - 870AD (and beyond) Corruption & Waste Statistics Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

This chart shows what our current Corruption/Waste is in all of the cities. It also shows some additional Information:



The formulation for this is Referenced from: Everything you ever wanted to know about corruption and the User Freindly FAQ that is linked to in that thread.

In the Chart:
Corruption effects Trade. Waste effects Shield Production.
Courthouses effect both Corruption and Waste. WLKD effects ONLY Waste.

The chart shows what is the current statistics for Corruption/Waste. It also shows the following:
1) Corruption/Waste with JUST a Courthouse.
2) Waste with ONLY WLKD.
3) Waste with BOTH Courthouse and WLKD.

From the time when I published my Construction Shack - 820AD (and beyond) Corruption & Waste Statistics Report to the present, we have added 9 Courthouses to our Nation. We have also annexed the last of the cities from the French, while disbanding Lyons. With these two counterbalancing each other, we have actually had AVERAGE Corruption increase by 0.46%. We have also achieved WLKD in a number of cities and the AVERAGE Waste has decreased by 0.17%. The addition of Avignon to city Rank 38, Besancon to Rank 42, Heliopolis to Rank 43, Tours to Rank 44 and Grenobie to Rank 47 have "pushed down" the other cities and have increased the overall corruption in only a relatively small percentage of our nation. Waste in Contagion only increased by 4%, which pushed back the FP construction by one turn. This will be counterbalanced by added Infrastructure and Population.

As you can see, adding the courthouses have had a profound effect on our Corruption, especially while we are in the GA. The addition of the remainder of the Courthouses and the completion of the FP will have a profound effect in the near future. The movement of some of the current French cities will also have some effect The 4 cities that are grayed out will be demolished within the next 12 turns.

I have some further charts showing future effects that will be in the next set of posts.

E_T

	07-11-2002 05:17									#2
	Conjectured Corruption & Waste Statistics - Post FP, around 950AD Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

This chart shows what our Corruption/Waste will most likely be in all of the cities. It also shows some additional Information:



The formulation for this is Referenced from: Everything you ever wanted to know about corruption and the User Freindly FAQ that is linked to in that thread.

In the Chart:
Corruption effects Trade. Waste effects Shield Production.
Courthouses effect both Corruption and Waste. WLKD effects ONLY Waste.
Cities that are closer to the FP than the Palace are considered to be FP Centric, all others are Palace Centric.

The chart shows what is the current statistics for Corruption/Waste. It also shows the following:
1) Corruption/Waste with JUST a Courthouse.
2) Waste with ONLY WLKD.
3) Waste with BOTH Courthouse and WLKD.

With the Completion of the Forbidden Palace in Contagion, the National Corruption is greatly reduced. This CONJECTURE assumes that Tours & Besancon will have been Disbanded and the new Cities added to the Site #2 & #3 positions. Grenobie & Avignon will be disbanded, but will most likely not by this time period. Only 12 Cities are FP Centric with the other 36 of them Palace Centric. This also assumes that we will have built Courthouses in the cities that have the grayed our courthouse column. The same applies to grayed out WLMrWIAD in the WLKD column.

The National AVERAGE Corruption has be ruduced from 53.65% to 35.29%, a decrease of 18.36%! The National AVERAGE Waste has also been reduced from 48.46% to 30.29%, a decrease of 18.17%!. The addition of Courthouses in the Newly Annex cities and some of the last of the outlying cities and additional WLKD’s will help get our Corruption/Waste to an all time low for our Nation.

I will have some further posts to show what the Corruption/Waste will be with different Palace locations. I’ll have these up later this evening.

E_T

	07-11-2002 12:12									#3
	All City - Palace at Apolyton Support Apolyton

This chart (and the ones that will follow) assumes a few things:
1) Government of Democracy
2) All of our Current Cities and the ones that are soon to be built all have courthouses and are in WLKD.
3) No Police stations are Present.
4) That the Zulu Lands ARE closer to the FP (see my post about map Coordinates).

The Extra Cities come from Donegeal's Regional Report, with a couple of cities edited by me (see his thread and my post toward the end).

I'll have the rest of the charts up tomorrow (I might get one more done tonight, but I doubt it).

E_T

	07-11-2002 20:11									#4
	All Cities - Palace at Timeline Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I had split this next chart up. First is the Palace Cerntric, second is the FP Centric





One quick thing with the move to Timeline, 3 of the German cities: Hamburg; Hannover & Frankfurt moved from FP Centric to Palace Centric. THere were no opposite Centric Moves.

Overall Corruption & Waste is up (see the colomns that show With a Court & With Court and WLKD) with this move.

E_T

	07-11-2002 20:32									#5
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E_T, thanks for the details. Your work here confirms what I have suspected of late. Palace moving benefits are limited at best. The principal benefit is culture flipping opportunities. However, since we are already way over the optimal city count, the results of culture flipping will be an additional 95% corrupt city (somewhere). It probably won't be the city that flipped, since it's chance of flipping was increased by palace location. But no matter where the new city appears on the distance sorted city list, another one will be beyond the optimal city count.

This brings up another topic. San Cortez. Since the purpose of this city was Operation Flip Em Off, and the above tables demonstrate the futility in this strategy, and the city is too close to several other cities, I contend it is time to pull the plug on Operation Flip Em Off in general and San Cortez in detail.

The dubious Civ3 game concept of Optimal City Count, forces us to only place, or capture cities that can develop nearly all of their potential tiles.

This thread demonstates the true value of the DemoGame. Many different minds converging on the same problem from diverse viewpoints. A learning experience that has few equals. I know personally, that as a result of things I have learned already in this game, that I am playing about 1 full level higher than I was before.

	07-11-2002 21:04									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Would the corrpution & waster be better overall if another city was chosen for the new Palace?
And don't forget that we currently have a GL, so we
could use the Leader to build a new Palace instantly even in a 95% waste city if that would reduce coruption and waste the most overall.

If there's no city in our empire that if the Palace were moved to that would decrease overall corrpution and waste by at least 10%, I propose we pull the plug on moving the palace.

I think the Flip them off campaign should continue.

But as we get the new cities, should of them should be converted into workers.

	07-11-2002 21:18									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Can we examine the possibility of moving the palace to Macross City?

	07-11-2002 21:33									#8
	All Cities - Palace at Macross City Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The Macross City Palace Centric Chart:



And the FP Centric Chart with the Palace at Macross City:



THe number of Cities between the two are more balanced. Corruption overall has been reduced. Almost all of the Cities that are on Uber are now FP Centric with the move to Macross City. Of the three options that I've looked at sofar, this looks to be the best.

I still have one more chart showing the Palace at Here It Is. I'll have it up in a bit.

E_T

	07-11-2002 21:35									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Can we examine the possibility of moving the palace to Macross City?

Just posted it.

E_T

	07-11-2002 21:53									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by roadcage E_T, thanks for the details. Your work here confirms what I have suspected of late. Palace moving benefits are limited at best. The principal benefit is culture flipping opportunities. However, since we are already way over the optimal city count, the results of culture flipping will be an additional 95% corrupt city (somewhere). It probably won't be the city that flipped, since it's chance of flipping was increased by palace location. But no matter where the new city appears on the distance sorted city list, another one will be beyond the optimal city count.

Corruption is managable, if you work with it properly. You can still have a very large Empire and still be productive. The placement of FP & ultimately the Palace are of primary Importance when dealing with it. Contagion was (and still is) a good choice for the FP. All of the other options on that side of the nation would have still been in the build up stage.

quote: This brings up another topic. San Cortez. Since the purpose of this city was Operation Flip Em Off, and the above tables demonstrate the futility in this strategy, and the city is too close to several other cities, I contend it is time to pull the plug on Operation Flip Em Off in general and San Cortez in detail.

Actually it's a good investment, but you just don't go and throw away something that could work for you. We'll ultamately be better off with those cities, as they are closest to the Greek Ivory.

quote: The dubious Civ3 game concept of Optimal City Count, forces us to only place, or capture cities that can develop nearly all of their potential tiles. This thread demonstates the true value of the DemoGame. Many different minds converging on the same problem from diverse viewpoints. A learning experience that has few equals. I know personally, that as a result of things I have learned already in this game, that I am playing about 1 full level higher than I was before.

Just for everyones Information, our UNMODIFIED OCN (for this game) is 25. Our Modified OCN (MOCN) is 32 with a courthouse or WLKD (for Waste); 38 with a Courthouse & Police Station or Court & WLKD (for Waste); and 44 with all three for Waste only. If you have more than 1.5 times your MOCN centric to your Palace/FP, then you will have Catastrophic Corruption, no matter WHAT you do, but only in the cities that are furtherest away (higher in rank).

NOW THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT - The rules for Communism are very different and could be very detrimental for a very large Empire. If I can keep corruption to a manageable level AND keep my people happy, especially without a Lux Tax, the I don't really have a NEED to move to Communism. It F**ks with my productive core cities.

E_T

	07-11-2002 23:48									#11
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So far to me it looks like:

1. We should not relocate the capital to Timeline.

2. Marcoss City doesn't appear to offer a sufficent benifit to relocate our palace there either at this time.
(Only a 5.7% percentage rate corruption reduction and 8.6% percentage rate waste reducation, assuming Court Houses everywhere & a universal We Love the Key Day)

But if we commit to building Police Stations everywhere and always having enough luxaries for a universal WLTK day, moving the palace to Marcoss City might one day be worth it.

I wonder how Here it Is will compare.

	08-11-2002 00:48									#12
	All Cities - Palace at Here It Is Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Here's the Palace Centric Chart for the Palace at Here It Is:



And Here is the FP Centric Chart, with the Palace at Here It Is:



Of the Three possible Moves, Macross City looks to be the Best, but Here it Is would be better If we decide to move further South into Roman and/or Russian Territory. Timeline looks to be the worst choice of them all.

That's all of the really viable cities that it can be moved too, within a reasonable amount of time.

As I have to work on my orders for tomorrow, I'll not be doing anymore until after the Next Gameplay.

E_T

	08-11-2002 00:58									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I propse that we stop building the Palace at Timeline immedately and switch it to the Bank. (Next in the queue)

I don't think we're quite ready for the Palace to start to move to Marcoss City yet, and instead I propose we wait to start building it there until after that city has a Hospital & a Factory during the early Industrial Age. (This would enable much faster construction of the place) Some time during it's construction we should aquire Communism so that the first few Police Stations will be in place.

	08-11-2002 01:49									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: I propse that we stop building the Palace at Timeline immedately and switch it to the Bank. (Next in the queue) I don't think we're quite ready for the Palace to start to move to Marcoss City yet, and instead I propose we wait to start building it there until after that city has a Hospital & a Factory during the early Industrial Age. (This would enable much faster construction of the place) Some time during it's construction we should aquire Communism so that the first few Police Stations will be in place.

Eureka! The lights are coming on. joncnunn, I hope you recognize that the harsh roleplay/cynical tone of several of my last posts were nothing personal. Just a technique I have found to be effective in RL when trying to get folks to re-evaluate pre-concieved notions.

.)Have a neutral party produce reports that have hidden within them pointers to the desired conclusion

.)Produce cynical/harsh comments about the pre-concieved notion containing additional hints to but not the actual analysis required

.)Sit back and wait for the inspiration to happen.



I agree that the Timeline palace should be cancelled and replaced with an city developing project. A bank is ok but I suggest that E_T make the final call on exactly which infrastructure project is accelerated.

I agree that it is pre-mature to begin palace construction anywhere. Yes Factory/Hospital will help, but more significantly, I doubt that we know the desired location yet.

Let me put it another way.

quote: but Here it Is would be better If we decide to move further South into Roman and/or Russian Territory.

What was ignored here was that Timeline would be better if Flip Em Off were successful and we moved furthur north into Greek, Aztec, and German lands.

Until we commit to an expansion direction, any Palace choice is tough to justify.

And one more fly in the ointment, I do not see city site 1b (from the GH plan for France) on the lists. While it is impossible to know until Steam Engine where the coal is, I have never seen a city location with better Iron Works possibilities than site 1b. This site already has iron, and EVERY remaining tile within it's eventual working radius is either jungle, hill, or mountain all of which are possible coal sites.

I assert that if we are lucky enough to have an iron works there the palace should be located to fully exploit this development.

	08-11-2002 01:50									#15
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

E_T, can you please start a poll concerning this and post your charts in the poll thread?
IMHO, the options should be:
* Continue building the new palace in Timeline.
* Build the new palace in Macross City instead.
* Pause current construction and relocate the palace later.

With regard to the fact that relocating the palace won't achieve much at the moment and given our still-unstable borders I'd personally pick the last option.

	08-11-2002 02:15									#16
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I am convinced that option 3 will prevail in the vote.

This decision can only be postponed for a few turns. Once the shields in Timeline exceed the largest cost available project, waste will result. I do not have the game up at my current location, so I cannot give a turn count decision window. However, I am pretty sure that we can go this turnchat and still make a Bank.

	08-11-2002 02:43									#17
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quote: Originally posted by roadcage I agree that the Timeline palace should be cancelled and replaced with an city developing project. A bank is ok but I suggest that E_T make the final call on exactly which infrastructure project is accelerated.

I will delay the current Palace Production, Pending a new Poll (I have to check to see what the time frame has been from the last one).

quote: What was ignored here was that Timeline would be better if Flip Em Off were successful and we moved furthur north into Greek, Aztec, and German lands.

If you'll notice, I did include those Cities (and more) in my Charts.

quote: Until we commit to an expansion direction, any Palace choice is tough to justify. And one more fly in the ointment, I do not see city site 1b (from the GH plan for France) on the lists. While it is impossible to know until Steam Engine where the coal is, I have never seen a city location with better Iron Works possibilities than site 1b. This site already has iron, and EVERY remaining tile within it's eventual working radius is either jungle, hill, or mountain all of which are possible coal sites.

Site 1B was built last turnchat and was named by default as Heliopolis. So it's included in the charts as one of the cities. I didn't list it as a canidate for the New Palace, as it's no where in any position to begin production of something like the New Palace. Not without a Lot of Infrasturcture, Prebuild Inprovements & population to build it. It might be considered at some future date, but not until after the next turnchat.

quote: I assert that if we are lucky enough to have an iron works there the palace should be located to fully exploit this development.

We hope that that happens, but we'll see.

E_T

	08-11-2002 02:53									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Definately voting for #3.

With regards to an Iron Works appearing at 1B.

I'm assuming that 1B will be further down from current place than Site 2. This seems to place it on almost half the shields produced wasted (with Court House + We Love the King Day.) If we have another war, and get a GL at the right time (say end of the next war like it was in this case), it may be worth it to use it for the Palace in 1B if we find that it is indeed an Iron Works City.

	08-11-2002 05:16									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Thanks E_T. Yes I see Heliopolis on the city list and more importantly I see it where I expected to see it in the current save. Whether this site gets an Iron Works or not, it will probably be our top Shield city once fully developed.

roleplay
Every few minutes, I pan over to Heliopolis, and imagine it fully developed. Visions of shields dance thru my head marching forward and slowly turning into Armies of Modern Armor! Taking a southeasterly path to Avignon Field. Stoping there, and pausing at the foot of the statue of Lord Khufu, erected at the former site of the foul French city of Avignon, so all would remember the great work begun there so many turns ago.
/roleplay

While I realize that I am not a member of the government and not entitled to such provelidge, I hereby suggest that the Heliopolis be re-named

The Arsenal (of democracy)

And I was not necessarily suggesting that the Capital be placed there, just close enough to get a real shield pop! Marcross City and Hole in the Wall both look suitable for this purpose. But gosh, with an Iron Works/Factory etc The Arsenal sure could do a Palace fast

	08-11-2002 19:10									#20
	Put an end to popups!

E_T- not that i mind stopping the palace building in Timeline, I actually agree that building the palace there could be wrong, as your estimates show.
BUT, i think some announcement in your part is necessary, in the spirit of this game- as the poll ruled that Timeline is the site. Just post that you plan to postpone the constrction, in sight of this new analysis, etc.

	08-11-2002 19:53									#21
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quote: Originally posted by zeit E_T- not that i mind stopping the palace building in Timeline, I actually agree that building the palace there could be wrong, as your estimates show. BUT, i think some announcement in your part is necessary, in the spirit of this game- as the poll ruled that Timeline is the site. Just post that you plan to postpone the constrction, in sight of this new analysis, etc.

I Already did, in the City status thread. It has been pushed back but not entirely taken out of the Q.

E_T

	08-11-2002 21:31									#22
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Heliopolis will only become the most productive city if the Palace is near it.

Macross City is close enough with only 10% waste with Court House + WLTK Day, with the waste dropping more with Police Station. (Athough we might want to investigate the 3 cities currently Greek that are closer to Marcoss City if we take them over.)

But if Heliopolis turns out to be an Iron Works city, then it will become the opimum location of the palace so that no shields in that highly productive city are wasted.