07-11-2002 06:12									#1
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I don't know if this is possible to do or not in the editor but I think science rate should go up when you're at war. In just about every war, epecially the US civil war, technology increased very quickly. Anyone agree or know a way this could be done?

	07-11-2002 06:22									#2
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While I do agree with your observation, I think a lot of the "perfectionists" would go crazy about this one.

HA HA HA HA HA....

	07-11-2002 06:25									#3
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I dont agree. Didnt only military science improve in wartime? And i dont think going to war needs any more incentives in gameplay terms.

	07-11-2002 06:33									#4
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Military Science improved mostly, but because of that, many new ideas came that helped make other everyday items. Too bad I can't think of any examples right now, but someone should know some.

	07-11-2002 06:35									#5
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If being in a war increases your science/research output, then war would be good and peace bad. There would be no incentive in a peaceful civilization...except having "happy" citizens. Even as it stands right now, when you're at war you can keep your citizens happy while at war by increasing luxury tax and juggling some balls (entertainers)...so it is a "game balancing" situation.

	07-11-2002 06:43									#6
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quote: Originally posted by SK138 Military Science improved mostly, but because of that, many new ideas came that helped make other everyday items. Too bad I can't think of any examples right now, but someone should know some.

jet engines

the start of commercial flight

the idea is good btw, but there should be a balancing negative (except for war weariness)

- slower growth
- income penalties
- higher corruption
are some possibilities
(war should be a bad thing IMO)

	07-11-2002 10:23									#7
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And of course in the late game, this could evolve:


warfare->v-2 rockets->Apollo->tang

of course, tang=transcendence and you win the game.

	07-11-2002 11:41									#8
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In MP games you would try find a partner which you could agree to be at war with to increase the tech rate.

	07-11-2002 12:04									#9
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In a MP game, it won't be a matter of finding a "partner"... just a matter of finding somebody else to attack

	07-11-2002 12:15									#10
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I think that, in terms of CivIII abstractions, the "tech boost" from certain recent "real life" war winners is better reflected by the science slider than the state of being in war itself.

A lot of WWII (the period I assume that you're thinking about) resources went into a "tech race".

Unlike what happened in certain CivII scenarios, I wouldn't want to see Roman expansion wind up giving the Celts gunpowder.

	07-11-2002 13:05									#11
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quote: Originally posted by SK138 I don't know if this is possible to do or not in the editor but I think science rate should go up when you're at war. In just about every war, epecially the US civil war, technology increased very quickly. Anyone agree or know a way this could be done?

Two observations --

1. Major wars often occur during times of rapid technological change, which generally coincide with rapid social change, which coincides with revised views of strength, as tech progress is hardly ever uniform between nations/civs/what-have-you -- simplistically put, the industrialized North didn't need slaves whereas the largely agrarian South did. IIRC, the only major Confederate tech innovation -- albeit a huge one! -- was the ironclad (yep, I know, the Hunley as 1st submarine -- at once brilliant and an utter failure).

2. Major wars also suppress non-military advances -- WW2 basically put the television on the back-burner for its duration.

-Oz

	07-11-2002 13:05									#12
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I guess you can come up with arguments either for war and for peace as far as science is concerned.

Like the Nth Rule of Acquisition:

"War is good for profit"
"Peace is good for profit"

	08-11-2002 01:58									#13
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Martinus,

Those would be rules 34 and 35 from the Ferengi Rules of Aquisition.

see: http://www.sjacob.org/trek/


D.

	08-11-2002 02:09									#14
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I think the game already does a decent job with the mobilization option.

Increased production and "military only" related production focus the results of your previous innovations that otherwise would have languished for decades in research labs. Most of the German "super weapons" had been in R&D by the university scientists all through the 1930's, but weren't rushed into service until 1944, when it was already too late for them to do any good.

And something people don't realize is that WW II started almost 5 years too early for the Nazi "Master Plan" - their economy wasn't fully mobilized until 1944 when they realized that they had lost in Russia (read 'Mobilized' status vs. Normal).

Countries like Great Britain, Canada were fully mobilized by 1940, and late 1942 for the United States. This is part of the reason for why things turned out the way they did.

Never underestimate the stupidity of great political leaders when it comes to war.


D.

	08-11-2002 03:02									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Gen.Dragolen And something people don't realize is that WW II started almost 5 years too early for the Nazi "Master Plan" - their economy wasn't fully mobilized until 1944 when they realized that they had lost in Russia (read 'Mobilized' status vs. Normal).

Admiral Raeder actually promised Hitler that the German navy would be ready for war in 1946.

-Oz.

	08-11-2002 03:21									#16
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quote: Originally posted by SK138 I don't know if this is possible to do or not in the editor but I think science rate should go up when you're at war. In just about every war, epecially the US civil war, technology increased very quickly. Anyone agree or know a way this could be done?

While the observation is correct, its projection into the game is not. It was not the war itself that made science progress so fast. It was the huge resource investment made by warring parties (manpower & finances). You can have this even in the current incarnation of Civ3, if you raise your science budget while at war (say, to get a military tech ASAP), maybe even adding scientists... not effective game-wise, but that would be similar to what happened in the real world.

And as someone correctly pointed out, war often helped bring techs already known, but not yet used, into common use.

	08-11-2002 03:58									#17
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack ..maybe even adding scientists... not effective game-wise

Is there a way to add scientists in Civ3, I hope this isn't something I missed. I remember in Master of Orion 2 you could add scientist, but I never thought you could in the civ games.

	08-11-2002 04:52									#18
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quote: Originally posted by SK138 Is there a way to add scientists in Civ3, I hope this isn't something I missed. I remember in Master of Orion 2 you could add scientist, but I never thought you could in the civ games.

Sure you can. Open up your city view. click on a worker in the field, he will then turn into an entertainer at the bottom of the screen. Now click on the Entertainer guy and he'll turn into a Tax Collector - click again and he'll turn into a scientist.

	08-11-2002 08:10									#19
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Thanks Wittlich, I wish I would have known that a long time ago. That should make a huge difference in my game.

	08-11-2002 10:33									#20
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War should help with the proliferation of weapon technologies. For example if you kill someone with a musket and you only have a club. You will capture that weapon and try figure out how it works. At worst you will pick up the 'hard tube weapon' and use it as a more effective club!

Most of the time knowing that you can do something is halfway to actually achieving something!

	08-11-2002 15:22									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Gen.Dragolen I think the game already does a decent job with the mobilization option. Increased production and "military only" related production focus the results of your previous innovations that otherwise would have languished for decades in research labs. Most of the German "super weapons" had been in R&D by the university scientists all through the 1930's, but weren't rushed into service until 1944, when it was already too late for them to do any good.

That's a good idea. Mobilization-only production. There are certain things that cannot be built when mobilized, UU's that can only be built by certain Civs or certain governments (well, none in vanilla Civ3, but you can check the flag on/off) so why not the same with mobilization?

Just an idea.