06-08-1999 01:26									#1
	The Spartan Chronicles: Bureaucracy at work Tired of ads?

I hereby declare this thread the primary governmental organ of the Spartan Chronicles. Let's try to keep disputes at a minimum, and only bring them forth if they will require a major change in the story.

Proposition one--the first issue at hand--is whether or not to introduce a Civil War into the story. There is one vote per person for every Chronicler--not counting doubles.

Voting for Veracitas and Atreus:

Yay: 1
Nay: 0
[This message has been edited by Atreus (edited August 05, 1999).]

	06-08-1999 02:54									#2
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My understanding was that the civil war idea was proposed as an event that would tie various storylines together, and breathe some new life into the story. I think the attack on Deep Clustering and the Planet Buster issue will take care of that for the time being. A civil war can always be introduced later if it is needed, but the assault should keep people busy for a while. I also think that the story should stay within the confines of SMAC as much as possible.

Yay: 1
Nay: 1

	06-08-1999 03:07									#3
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A civil war is OK by me. The greatness of the story is in being swept along wherever it leads and being fast enough with the pen to respond before someone else has taken it iff on another tangent.

As SMAC allows custom factions, and as someone has already played a game with the Spartans and Vel's Honshu splinter faction, we could have a civil war, a splinter, and a redrawn map with it in.

So I vote yes


Yes: 2
Nay: 1

Googlie & Slats

	06-08-1999 03:09									#4
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I just report what's happening, so I'll abstain (and Rynn's just along for the ride)

Yay: 2
Nay 1
Abstain 1

Paula & Rynn

	06-08-1999 03:45									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

i vote yes for a civil war but i vote it happens later...like near the end of the hive conflict. my thoughts are this.

honshu-is an isolationist wants the war to stop. he is the most hardcore of the "survivalist"

santiago-is flexable she wants to win the war but doesn't neccesarily wants it to spread. honshu thinks she sold out.

imperialist-this is a small group of officers who wants to conquer the world. they are past survial and want glory and conquest. they won't be happy until all factions are under their rule. they think santiago is too weak.

here's some scenarios

honshu doesn't like santiago descions he breaks off. spartans try to reunite him
like the american civil war.

honshu leads a movement to stop spartan expansion it succeeds then we have angry imperialist insurgents

santiago wins presses the war but the imperialist decide they could do better launches a coup...then we fight to restore santiago

those are just some suggestions but lets get this hive war established before craziness breaks out and plus i'd like to see lots of foreshadowing before it happens

korn469

	06-08-1999 05:14									#6
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In my mind a civil war, while a wonderful plot device with fascinating possibilities, does not fit reasonably into SMAC. I vote no.

Yea 3 (including Korn)
Nay 2
Abstain 1

	06-08-1999 10:57									#7
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I'm in between korn469 and Hydro, but I'll go with korn - I think that brings it to:
Yea - 2
Yea, but not yet - 2
Nay - 2
Abstain - 1
Which is a wonderfully mixed bag, of course . Unless you count Veracitas' mail, which seems to bring him into the 'not yet' camp.
How many civil wars break out while a nation is at war with another? Going to war is often the way out of a civil war / revolution threat. Let's go yea on the idea, but start after the battle, whichever way it turns out, for example while Santiago is at the negotiating table with Yang.

Later,
Kek

------------------
Numquam turbae misceri

	06-08-1999 12:01									#8
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Hmmmm.....well, since Honshu is my brainchild, I guess I'm all but obligated to vote yes for the civil war, but I agree that it probably should not be right now....a thing like that needs a solid reason to occur, and so far, there really isn't one. Now, if we can make the argument down the line that there is a gross mishandling of the war effort, or if in our writing we can demonstrate that there is a diametric pull between two methodologies (i.e., Honshu's isolationism vs. Santiago's "win-at-any-cost" way of thinking), and we can gravitate the main characters we've invented thus far towards one of those two camps, then we'll be in good shape to write about an epic internal conflict....

-=Vel=-
(and yes, my post on the 47th is coming, but everytime I try to write something down, I have to tweak it on account of the ever-shifting storyline....can't keep up with you guys!)

	06-08-1999 19:24									#9
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Kinji hasn't voted.

Where are you, Kinjiru?

The little project you started a month ago has grown until it is consuming every waking moment of some of our lives (and threatening to dominate Apolyton's SMAC site) and a movement is afoot to absorb more megabytes - yeah even gigabytes - of plot twists and turns.

You are strangely silent, Oh Kinjiru.

We crave your wisdom.

Speak to us.

Googlie

	06-08-1999 23:51									#10
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I vote yes, but let's build up to it. In a society where survival is paramount some people (those not as strong) are bound to be pushed to the side, when there are enough of them they might consider revolting and creating a more humanistic government...just my 2 cents

	07-08-1999 03:17									#11
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Generally, it seems that the provisions Proposition One is supported by most, though the time of the event still remains ambiguous. True, Tokek, some people use war to get them out of civil problems (does Clinton come to mind?), however, in certain cases, it can also destabilise the government. This is especially true if the leader of the country actually goes on the expedition. Even if Santiago doesn't go--which I expect--the logistics can still be weaved through. I'll have a suggestion ready sometime when I actually have time to spare (gasp)

--Veracitas

	07-08-1999 03:33									#12
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I think that whether or not the war leads to civil conflict depends on how the war with the Hive plays out. A well planned war with clear objectives will probably bring people together more than it drives them apart, whereas a long, drawn out, Vietnam-like conflict could lead to civil strife.

In any case, I think we should focus on the Hive for the time being. Feel free to forshadow a civil war and build tension. I think most of us have learned, though, not to get too attached to any particular storyline .

	07-08-1999 05:50									#13
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First, I want to apologize to everyone for my absence. My job has just consumed me - 110 hour weeks simply suck.

My thoughts as to civil war:

In general the idea is intriging and could certainly form the basis of some new stories.

However, as intriguing as the idea is, I have reservations. It would mean by necessity that either A) many of the current characters will be 'lost' or B) most every writer will have to handle two plot lines (their old established chars and the new ones that will spring up in one side or the other). I just worry that we will get overly ambitous.

So I guess my vote is yea, but not quite yet. Let us have somethings happen in the main story which we can later use as the 'breaking point'.

My vision is a courtmartial for Santiago and her 'core' of aides. She get cleared, but Honshu (maybe as the prosecutor) quits the proceedings in disgust and takes off. But of course, y'all will be doing most of the writing so I am willing to bet it plays out differently! =)

Carry on!

	24-01-2000 21:56									#14
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^

	24-01-2000 23:38									#15
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are we hinting at something...?

	25-01-2000 08:57									#16
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Just bringing to the surface that we all thought a Spartan Civil war might be interesting later in the Chrons than first mooted.

It's now later.

What do the authors think?

The Hive are about to be eradicated (unless yang can quickly get an 8/8/1 res plus a mark III Ogre in each base and I can't see lal being much of an opponent.

Does Santiago rally humankind against the Aliens? (The Harry Turtledove "In the Balance" scenario)

Does the Spartan Federation fall apart, torn by internal rifts, into a revived Yoop, an expanded Consciousness, etc

Does Honshu rise against Corazon? If so, why? Maybe the issue of using nerve gas?

Or do we have Santiago declared Supreme governor (much the same as aligning the humans against the Progenitors)

Or does the Progenitor battle fleet conduct a little "Planet Sanitization" by eradicating the humans?

The intent was to get this discussion going again

Whither the Chronicles?

Googlie


[This message has been edited by Googlie (edited January 24, 2000).]

	26-01-2000 06:53									#17
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A civil war now might be quite appropriate. I could see it happening like this:

Yang has clearly been beaten. A new threat(s) are looming on the edges. If Santiago were to wish to 'blindly' continue the war against Yang, even though her advisers and others (namely Honshu) are advocating turning to meet the new challenges (aliens) we have a very logical split.And it is exactly this kind of split that occurs in military-led govts.

On the other hand, perhaps it is time to wrap up the chronicles and take the next steps of completing the editing and looking into some manner of publication? Even if we only get it bound at Kinkos and distribute around here. This might be the best choice considering there are only a couple authors left at this point.

And if The Chronicles are concluded they could always be reopened at some point. Perhaps 50 years in the future. That could be really neat, as we see the next couple of generations making reference to the great acts of the 'legends' of the past.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Kinjiru

	26-01-2000 08:32									#18
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I think we definetly need something if this thing is going to keep on going. We've already got Mirriam on the move and now Zak seems to be coming back. But we need something big to stir things up to allow Santiago to let her guard down enough to let the Federation fall apart. Perhaps a split in regards to the arrival of the Progenators? So if the votes still going, I vote yea. And soon too. Yang's a goner.

------------------
Jason the Argonaut
"I like horses. Thank You."
-Daniel MacIvor

	26-01-2000 08:44									#19
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The Believers would like to see the Hive be eradicated for crushing us inour infancy, blasphemiong all our beliefs, torturing our leader, and being an all around jacka@*.

So I vote Yay on the Civil War but not at the moment.

P.S. - What would happen if we brough Zak back ?

------------------
Damnit, Jim I'm a doctor not an animal psychologist

	26-01-2000 10:30									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

I have noticed a definite drop in the quality of the Spartan Chronicles of late, as you guys struggle to figure out what to do now that the Spartan Moon is Rising. Well, it wouldn't be the Spartan Chronicles if that weren't the inevitable destiny of the Spartans, would it? Let it happen ... you're trying too hard to keep the story at its current "evolutional level", and it feels forced.

Your coming together and deciding in advance what is going to happen in the story is a step in the right direction. I think, however, that "make-work" projects like a Civil War turns the Spartan Chronicles into something more like the Spartan Serial Comic.

I have no problem with serials, but serials that never evolve suck big time. Nobody ever improves. Nobody ever grows. Nobody learns from past mistakes, nor remembers what worked last episode, and so are doomed to struggle desperately with permutation after permutation of the same problem, week after week. To take an extreme example Charlie Brown has presumably flunked the sixth grade 50 times, for he has been a sixth grader for 50 years. Now, having accomplished so little, he is dead. Move your story forward, even if it moves the story away from where it has been!

I think the time has come for you to decide how the story is going to end. Once you have an ending, filling in everything in-between becomes much easier. The ending doesn't have to be soon -- the Chronicles might not even be halfway there yet! -- but it has to be.

Does Santiago transcend? Do the Progenitors build the Fleet Beacon? Do the two events occur simultaneously, so that it is implied that the birth of a Spartan Planet might, in true Spartan tradition, be a baptism by fire against a vast alien armada?

If it were me (and I haven't written a lick, so I'm not one to talk) that would be my ending ... the Spartans Transcend, horrifying the lead elements of the Progenitor Armada as Planet Sparta awakens before them. It would, of course, end without actually revealing whether the Armada fights or befriends Thermopylae (as Planet Sparta would choose to style itself) ...

And although cliche' the "classic" serial ending here:

THE END?

P.S. Planet Sparta. Cool.

P.P.S. Thermopylae is pronounced "Ther MAH pih lye".
Hukt on fonix wurkt for me!

	26-01-2000 21:14									#21
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perhaps planet will have enough of these petty beings squabbling over her. humans and progenitor alike. maybe the flowering will begin and nobody will be able to stop it. as for the civil war. i think now is a good time. there's more that i want to do with Archon at the moment. i think we should come to a decision of how the whole shebang should end, and fill in the gaps afterwards, as vi vicdi suggested. it would take alot of pressure off of our hands if we figured out what happens now.

	27-01-2000 04:55									#22
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Hello SCers,

I vote no on a Spartan Civil War for several reasons:

 It would bend the rules of SMAC too much. In SC we have tried to remain within the bounds set up by Brian and Sid. If we throw away too many rules then it ceases to be SMAC.
 It is a little forced – why would the Spartan leaders tear up their Federation when nothing has been done to violate the Spartan ethic? If anything, the Spartans have behaved more honorably and have been more loyal to their military code than all the other factions, except, perhaps, Lal. As to the Progenitor threat, how could a fragmented Sparta be effective against 90 Progenitor ships? The very act of a civil war would doom both parties! Also, the Spartans are hardheaded realists. I can’t see them falling out over quibbles over ideology. A Spartan debates, challenges, but ultimately obeys orders as long as it stays within the warrior’s code.
 A civil war would make SC lose focus and clarity, even if it might present plot opportunities. We already have 9 factions (Hive, Sparta, Morgan, Gaians, PKs, Consciousness, Drones, Believers, and Usurpers) and the real possibility of one more (UoP). SC is already fracturing. How can we keep track of the plot with all these existing elements, and then understand another Spartan faction?

Future direction of SC: In my mind we either wrap up SC or use the Progenitors to rally humanity
 Wrap up SC – as has been mentioned this is the noble way out. Wrap up the loose ends and move on, perhaps with a retrospective after Santiago either is elected Supreme Leader (after eradicating the Progenitors, of course) or transcends (taking her friends with her, and the nasty Yang and Progenitors in the dust).
 Progenitors – if the Hive allies with the Progenitors and the Progenitors are powerful, then this is a foe worthy of Sparta. However, this needs to be established in the text of SC. (Note – with a fleet of 90 Usurper ships in orbit all humans on Planet should be already dead – can you say orbital bombardment?). The focus of SC would turn from Yang stewing in his juices to trying to understand and come to grips with the Progenitors and their menace.

Just my two cents.

Hydro

	27-01-2000 09:55									#23
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Seems like The Progenitors are playing it coy

Doesn't seem like Marr has built the necessary six subspace generators to summon the fleet - only an accidental bumping into him by the detatchment.

But 20 Ogres (let's hope they're not Mk III's )

On apace. There's life in the old dog yet.

G.

	01-02-2000 08:32									#24
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Having read further other peoples rationale, I have to agree and change my vote to a 'nay'. I think it is important that an end be decided on for the Chronicles, but not necessarily an end that's coming anytime soon. Just so that everyone is writing towards the same goal, and can decide exactly how their characters are going to end up.

------------------
Jason the Argonaut
"I like horses. Thank You."
-Daniel MacIvor

	08-02-2000 18:28									#25
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Whew, this has been a while. I see I have some catching up to do. Still see Googlie around from way back when, any of the others around from the early Spartan/Hive war?

Running off (public terminal)
Kek

------------------
Numquam turbae misceri

	08-02-2000 21:58									#26
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it seems to me that we still have not made a descision on what exactly to to, much like the first time something was proposed. we're close (relatively speaking) to ending it, or at least setting the stage for the final act, and what're we going to do about it? it's much easier to work toward something, rather than blither around and end it poorly. we should decide how it ends and then fill in the blanks.

but that's just some newbie's opinion.



------------------
i've had the poison leak into my skin
and it corroded my heart away

	08-02-2000 23:31									#27
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Hi Kek! Glad to hear from you again!

The old characters are around, but we haven’t heard much from them recently. The only ones to have died are Burke and Marlo (Marla?). Presumably the others are still waiting in the wings and ready for orders.

The big events in SC since you’ve been away are: the UN Charter was revoked (nerve gas and nukes will fly), the Hive is now about 1/3 of its original size, 2 Spartan (former UoP) cities were nuked and now only exist as a radioactive cloud, the Usurpers landed a while ago and now have some friends from Tau Ceti, the Usurpers have allied with Yang, and an ‘Axis’ has formed as all human factions but Yang have put aside their difference and allied against the new threat. Other interesting events include the emergence of the Cybernetic Consciousness, Drones, and the release of Miriam from Yang’s punishment sphere. Also, now almost everyone has fusion shard tech, so it is definitely an aggressor’s war. What city with AAA plasma fusion garrison (3*2*2*1.25*1.25) can stand against shard*fusion*nerve gas (13*2*1.5)?

Edgecrusher,

SC isn’t dead yet – not by a long shot. The significant tasks that remain are: fleshing out the Usurpers and establishing why they are a threat (now that Yang is pretty helpless), having humanity on Chiron struggle to understand the new threat (sometimes the hard way), and have the Axis try to figure out how to deal with Yang/Marr. We have a bunch of factions that are not well developed, and a couple fresh ones (Drones, Believers). How do they fit into the new mix? Will they survive? Will the Axis and its members survive the trials to come?

I see this as fertile ground.

Hydro

	09-02-2000 21:30									#28
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hydro, i wasn't saying that SC was dead, just that we are putting off the inevitable. there's a donkey cart full of possibilities. hell, we could be only a fifth of the way through, but writing like this is like forrest gump running out of the county, out of the state, etc. all i'm saying is that we should figure out where we're headed. that's all

edgecrusher, probe master.

------------------
i've had the poison leak into my skin
and it corroded my heart away

	10-02-2000 07:07									#29
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My $.02 worth:

In general terms, yes, I agree we should have a sense of the ending (Spartans transcend?)

But only after a bitter struggle against the superior weaponry of the Usurpers aided by humanity's traitor, Yang.

The early 'joy' of writing for the Chronicles was in its unstructured format - we went where the previous post had taken us and (some of us ) enjoyed "throwing the spanner in the works" of an orderly development of the tale.

So I agree with Hydro - and with Edgecrusher - let's agree on an ending (maybe planetary supremo for Santiago once the Alien/Yang threat has been removed, 'cos there's an awful lot of tech still to be discovered before transcendence)

And welcome back, Tokek - we missed you. You can d/l the Chrons from my home page above.

I need to get cracking to get the Ogres and Gnats on Planet's surface.

Googlie

	10-02-2000 07:23									#30
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I think we might have already decided our ending without really noticing. Basically, Santiago has been elected Supreme Leader (well Lal is being a pain, but what can you do?). Yang is the only human faction who is on the outside, however that happens in SMAC too. You go for Supreme Leader, but one of the factions refuses and you have to go and kick his butt. So basically, when Yang and his allies bite it, it ends. So basically, we're just working towards and Axis victory (an interesting parallel by the way) in the war. This can go on of course as long as possible since the Aliens showed up.
And Googlie, even though an end is established, it doesn't mean you aren't still flying by the seat of your pants. We may know where we're going but we have no idea how the hell we're going to get there!

P.S. Where do the Cyborgs fit into the political scheme of things. They weren't at the Council, were they?