19-11-2002 18:04									#31
	Corruption... the bane of the AI's Utopia Enter the AD-FREE zone

Anti-Corruption Buildings & WLTKDs are what I currently do to reduce some waste/corruption.
Unfortunately, the AI has no idea how to help their far away cities in this manner, so I don't want an even larger advantage over the AI with more Anti-Corruption buildings. The AI likes to try to conquer &/or create cities on the other side of the world, but AI Civs always fail to grow past a certain size - from what I've seen. I would be surprised if anyone ever saw an AI Civ getting close to winning at Domination or Conquest on a large or huge map. And as discussed in the Strategy Forum the AI is horrible at placing it's Forbidden Palace. This is a main reason why I want Distance Corruption as a whole reduced... it hurts the AI more than it does us.

	19-11-2002 23:15									#32
	Re: Corruption... the bane of the AI's Utopia Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Pyrodrew Anti-Corruption Buildings & WLTKDs are what I currently do to reduce some waste/corruption. Unfortunately, the AI has no idea how to help their far away cities in this manner, so I don't want an even larger advantage over the AI with more Anti-Corruption buildings.

A perfect reason to mod the buildings he's already going to build anyways.

Again, I don't bother, since I don't play Huge maps, but if Corruption is the bane of your existence, I'd go for modding all the existing buildings - or look into the threads in Strategy about "Killer AI" and "AU" and "Apolyton University" to see how to determine what the AI is going to build and mod only those.


Hope this Helped

	20-11-2002 02:35									#33
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quote: A perfect reason to mod the buildings he's already going to build anyways.

Just because the AI plans to build them does not mean the AI gets them built. At 1 shield a turn getting that first building can take a l-o-n-g time, even IF the AI didn't try to build defensive units (which it does sometimes). A human can/will rush build those buildings, use trees and/or a Forbidden Palace to stop the corruption where as the AI is blind to it. Therefore, more anti-corruption buildings only help the human player more.

	20-11-2002 02:58									#34
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Well, the best I can suggest then, is that you check out the AU Mod threads.

There's no silver bullet for helping the AI and not helping the player, but the AU mod is trying.

Another good one is the Patch Suggestion mod from player1.

Neither of these are focused specifically on corruption, but both attempt to improve the AI performance overall.

	20-11-2002 16:27									#35
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I think the simplest way to help the AI stop corruptio (as well as yourself) without changing the game totally and keeping the spirit of corruption alive is create 6 Forbidden Palace like minor wonders, give them names like Tallest building in the world, FBI, Gestapo, House of Commons, etc. That way when new continents are anexed they won't be useless for anything but culture and fortification. Basically a whole lot of FP clones.

	21-11-2002 01:38									#36
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Unfortunately, the AI is horrible at placing the Forbidden Palace - as discussed in the Strategy Forum. It will build the FP right next to it's capital.

I agree tho, modding (decrease overall corruption) & AU (which I've been reading/posting in) are the closest now.

	21-11-2002 09:41									#37
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I hate Corruption when going for Military Conquests, but i must say it IS realistic.


The Black market in some places is HUGE , it is rising in England (Mainly due to the stupid tax system!!), and while it still only accounts for a fraction of the economy it would account for a fair few shields/gold in your metropolis.
Take for example, South yorkshire(Which, let's remember is not very central and far from the 'capital'), where I come from. about 20% of luxury items (Cigarette's,Mobile Phones,golf clubs,Computer games,Digital TV ect) are sold via the Blackmarket!!

In Russia , a vast far flung empire, the black market probably accounts for 40% of the economy, if not more!!!


The bigger you get, the harder it can become to control you populance.

	21-11-2002 10:34									#38
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OK you modders, here are some suggestions for Capital based Small wonders that could potentially reduce corruption:

1) Council of Elders (Tribal Government Only)-counts as a Patriarch in each city
--->Patriarch (happiness 1, culture 1, reduce corruption)
2) Citizens Assembly (Classical Democracy only)-counts as a citizen-based election in every city
----> citizen-based elections (happiness 1, production 1, reduces corruption and war weariness)
3) Consular Senate (Classical Republic Only)-Counts as a Praetor's estate in every city)
---->Praetor's Estate (happiness -1, reduces corruption and war weariness, +25% revenue)
4) Chamber of Ministers (Beurocracy and Ancient Kingdom only)-Counts as an Administrators office in every city.
---->Administrators Office (reduces corruption)
5) Castle (Feudal Monarchy and Monarchy only)-Counts as Privy Counsillor and Sheriff in every city.
----> Privy Counsillor (reduces corruption and war weariness)
---->Sheriff (happiness -1, production +1, reduces corruption)
6) High Priests Council (Hagiocracy only)-counts as priestly authority in every city.
----> Priestly authority (happiness +2, culture -1, reduces corruption and war weariness)

OK, that's all I have time to write for now-and that just covers the Ancient and Early Middle Ages-I have even more for the late Middle and Industrial Age! Once my computer is fixed, I'm going to sit down and put these into a massive mod .
Which reminds me-could someone please let me know what the limit is on adding new technologies with the PtW editor? I'm dying to know before I get the XP. Thanks for your time.

The_Aussie_Lurker.

	23-11-2002 08:54									#39
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quote: I hate Corruption when going for Military Conquests, but i must say it IS realistic. The bigger you get, the harder it can become to control you populance.

Exactly, the bigger you get - not the farther from the capital you get (which is NOT realistic). As mentioned, Hawaii & Alaska are not the most corrupt places in America. Distance corruption hinders the AI from ever achieving a powerful size like the human player.
I have no problem with "# of cities" Corruption.

	23-11-2002 12:00									#40
	Re: Corruption... the bane of the AI's Utopia Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Pyrodrew Anti-Corruption Buildings & WLTKDs are what I currently do to reduce some waste/corruption. Unfortunately, the AI has no idea how to help their far away cities in this manner, so I don't want an even larger advantage over the AI with more Anti-Corruption buildings. The AI likes to try to conquer &/or create cities on the other side of the world, but AI Civs always fail to grow past a certain size - from what I've seen. I would be surprised if anyone ever saw an AI Civ getting close to winning at Domination or Conquest on a large or huge map. And as discussed in the Strategy Forum the AI is horrible at placing it's Forbidden Palace. This is a main reason why I want Distance Corruption as a whole reduced... it hurts the AI more than it does us.

The main Corruption slider in Civ3XEdit Difficulty Levels section modifies exactly that. As the editor help states, Setting this value lower or higher will reduce or amplify corruption proportionally. Crank the corruption down, and you might be surprised at how aggressively the AI expands on Deity level; they will often go over 60% of the map if they can manage it. Of course, they aren't any smarter about placing corruption reducing buildings, but if there is little corruption to begin with, the AI will definitely spread farther than normal. The more aggressive civs also seem to go to war a bit more often if the gain from going to war (taking productive cities) is high.

Overall, playing with low corruption feels quite like Civ2 in democracy; everyone crawling all over the world to fill up every last spot. It makes for a very different type of game, and a fairly challenging one at Emperor/Deity levels.

	24-11-2002 06:27									#41
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quote: I can see what all these other people are complaining about regarding corruption.

Exactly. Some people fail to realize even if Los Angeles has the FB, than that would still make Alaska & Hawaii the most corrupt places.

quote: The main Corruption slider in Civ3XEdit Difficulty Levels section modifies exactly that. As the editor help states, Setting this value lower or higher will reduce or amplify corruption proportionally.

Yes, but as mentioned earlier that impacts both types of corruption, not just Distance Corruption. Nevertheless, I agree that is the best solution in the meantime... if humans achieve 60%+ map control - the AI should have the same potential.

How low have you moved the slider to see positive results, like the 60%?

	24-11-2002 21:49									#42
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Is there a way to have corruptino effects decline over time?

It seems to me that the advent the instantaneous transcontinental movement when rail lines stretch from one end of a continent to another, then instantaneous global movement with airports, that distance-related penalties should be reduced.

I suppose airports could be flagged for corruption reduction.

	24-11-2002 23:40									#43
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I am curious: what is the lowest corruption that anyone has bee able to reach?

I think I was able to reach as low as 10% as the French, on a standard map, and about a dozen cities.

	25-11-2002 11:14									#44
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Pyrodrew:

It does not take much of a change in the corruption slider to make a big difference in corruption, you can see a difference in corruption values often by changing corruption by 5 or 10% I like to scale the corruption by difficulty levels. at regent I prefer the corruption to be 80% of default.

warning: Changing the corruption levels too much will drastically alter the game play. I set corruption at 50% in one game and had a bank roll of $300,000 by the 1500's I could rush anything I wanted and still make positive income per turn (+5000 g/pt )

	25-11-2002 12:10									#45
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MadBomber,

Thanks. I have not tested the Corruption Slider in full game tests yet. I will try the 80% in a Monarch game... again assuming/hoping it will help the AI more than it will me.

	25-11-2002 16:03									#46
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Pyrodrew:

if interested I will post a few other mods that I find make the AI's slightly more challanging. Unfortunately the corruption sliders don't help out the AI's all that much although, they are able to expand better and research quicker

	25-11-2002 20:01									#47
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Firing Squad works for me!