24-02-2000 13:55									#1
	Tell me how you use your choppers, boyo! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I have heard a lot on these forums about SMAC helicopter units being very powerful, for some reason or another. I have never produced them or found them useful, so I can only assume that I have been using them incorrectly all the while.

Instead, my tactics have always been to create huge squadrons of Needlejets and "blanket" each city in turn (ie attack from all eight sides with a needlejet, thus making reinforcement of the city impossible without the use of many Tacticals).

Can anybody initiate me into the proper levying and application of choppers in SMAC?

I am interested.

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"In all creation, there can be no task more onerous or tedious than that of playing God." - Stephen Fry, 'The Liar'.

	24-02-2000 14:24									#2
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The reason why choppers are so powerful is because they can attack as many times as they have movement points.

Consider an Elite Fusion Shard Chopper (13 moves). That's potentially as many attacks as 13 jets, for the cost and maintenance of just one unit.

Moreover, you don't have to return to a friendly base at the end of your turn (at the cost of 30% damage).

Aredhran

	24-02-2000 15:17									#3
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Costwise, is that more or less efficient than building an air force of needlejets?

I'm notorious for just building needlejets and nothing else... the few times my opponents have managed to bribe my needlejets or build some of their own to attack me with, they've done a fair bit of damage.

But I love the "blanket and bomb" technique, which, if done properly and with large enough an air force, can mean that enemy cities are never reinforced, and therefore must eventually fall.

The only problem with this is the high support cost of needlejets... I play mostly as Yang and that does me fine.

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"In all creation, there can be no task more onerous or tedious than that of playing God." - Stephen Fry, 'The Liar'.

	24-02-2000 16:11									#4
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Copter chassis has the same cost as needlejet's (8).

You can't do the "interdiction" trick with choppers though, since they land at the end of their turn and thus can be attacked by ground units.

	24-02-2000 18:47									#5
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Nestra,

I happen to be an advocate of both actually. Tactical needlejets happen to be my favorite overall unit but Choppers are great as well for ground pounding missions.

Expanding a little on what Red H says. Consider the follwoing a high attack value chopper with say Shard equipped with a multiplier say Ohh... NERVE GAS (I know many people don't like sanctions). This one unit is a veritable reusable PB in destructive power (up to 13 attacks depending on range that wipe out 1/2 the base population per attack. You can easily wipe out a 2 to 3 20 + pop base with one of these per turn). If atrocities bother you, another tremendous mod is to use Sopofiric Gas (any modifier like soporific, dissociative wave or blink makes these even more fearsome due to their multiple attacks). The name of the game here by using choppers is Blitzgreig. While a tactical needlejet supported ground force allows an inevitable crawl to destroying your enemies a few choppers followed up by a few locusts for base capture allows for quick lightening strikes. In the long run an offensive campaign using choppers and locusts can be much less costly as many fewer units are required to be produced vs. say a ground force of speeders or infantry supported by 8 + tacticals. The same effects can be achieved by 3 or so choppers and 2-3 locusts. One other important point is use of the chopper/locust combined forces allows world wide conquest including sea bases. It simply a matter of range. (The closer your choppers are to the front lines the more dangerous they become as it allows many more movement points to be expended in the multiple attacks) I've even taken to surrounding a base with tacticals and rushing formers forward to within two spaces of a base to make a forward airbase just so I could wipe out 10 units at a base with a single chopper.

The problem I have is in the early game I ususally want to go to war before choppers and locusts are available hence the reason I start my offensive campaigns just prior to discovery of airpower. As airpower becomes available my offensive is underway and a few rushed tacticals join the fray. As tech progresses in the mop up stages of the game I usually switch to chopper locust combos.


By the way I have coined the term Chaloopers for choppers outfitted with Soporific and Nerve Gasses. Like the Taco bell specials that they are, they deliver twice the gas.


[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited February 24, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited February 24, 2000).]

	24-02-2000 21:54									#6
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Ogie, I agree with you that Choppers are the single most important offensive unit in the game. If you have fusion and the other side does not, the unlucky opponent will face a 3-4 move future existence against a force of Choppers and paratroops.

However, lately, I normally get Choppers well in advance of any AI player. It then is just a matter of producing them (and in my view, paratroopers) in large numbers. The game quickly ends. (Locusts, I agree, are a good alternative to paratroops, but I find that they move too slow. Elite Paratroops drop and move +2. This give them far more range than Locusts. I find that Locust are quickly left far behind my quickly advance Copter-Paratroop force.)

However, if I am in a generous mood, I sometimes give the AI players all my technology just to make it fair. The AI player then starts making <4> anti-aircraft defensive units. This is often enough sufficient to defeat a copter. It makes a war a little more interesting and forces one to begin using other troups, such as elite shock troups, to take a well defended city.

Ogie, don't you find it interesting thay when the AI has a copter it never attacks a city like human players do? I have been in situations were the AI player had copters and could have, if it wanted to, made a determined attack on one of my cities and taken it. But instead, the copter wanders around picking off formers and crawlers. This normally allows me time to bring up an interceptor or two and put an end to this annoying but non leathal behavior.

Anywho, Copters are so powerful that world conquest is short and sweet. I have never seen the end portion of the game. I have never, for example, gotten to the Manifold Nexus or seen, for example, the space wars others here have talked about. When I get Copters, it is over.

Ned

BTW, I have never used nerve gas. One

	25-02-2000 10:13									#7
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Ned,

Good points on the drop troops. In actuality it really is a matter of preference. I prefer the locusts for the flexibility to take sea bases that drop troops can't take. When orbital insertions become available, then the drop troop really rule for land conquest.

	25-02-2000 09:10									#8
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Hey Ogie, about sea bases, try drop marines. Land on the shore next to a base and step in - or board them on a transport to attack from the sea. Typically, the AI surrenders before one has to go after hard to reach sea bases.

Ned

	26-02-2000 03:06									#9
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Copter/Locusts are a disgusting combination. Once I get this far in the game its usually over. I use the locusts not only to act as base capturers, but also to provide blocking, and ZOC interference to reinforcements, as well as destroying terrain enhancements (sensors).

	26-02-2000 05:55									#10
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Does anybody else find the Space Elevator to be very powerful in military terms?

If there's ever a rival faction still somehow going strong in the latter part of the game, I'll put everything towards building the Space Elevator and then making orbital insertions all over Planet with my troops.

Even in peacetime, the ability to drop a colony pod wherever you want and nonchalantly build a city there is not one to be sneezed at.

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"In all creation, there can be no task more onerous or tedious than that of playing God." - Stephen Fry, 'The Liar'.

	26-02-2000 12:02									#11
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The Space Elevator's value is diminished somewhat by the rapidity of late-game tech advances -- even without it you'll have unlimited drop range in just a few turns -- but yeah, it's pretty cool.

	27-02-2000 02:22									#12
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Alinestra Covelia: Other than the uses mentioned previously, Chopper Colony Pods (esp. Fusion) are also great. They can reach any point on the map, and fast. The only trouble is that they can't construct sea bases.

I sometimes use Chopper (and Needlejet BTW) Transports, however I usually build no more than two-three of those per game (their only role is to carry units from, to, and between sea bases).

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---LoD

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	27-02-2000 08:40									#13
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I prefer the infantry drop transport, myself.

	27-02-2000 13:58									#14
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Vi Vicdi: The math's against you:

Fission Infantry Drop Transport:
Cost - 30

Fusion Infantry Drop Transport:

Cost - 50
Max Movement Range per Turn - 8
Movement Restrictions:
-Can't move to water bases.
-Aerospace Complex

Fusion Transport Chopper:
Cost - 30
Max Movement Range per Turn - 10-16
Movement Restrictions:
none


Although I do have to admit that the Drop Infantry Transport looks cool .



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---LoD

He, who comprehends the past, shall conquer the present and rule the future.

	27-02-2000 21:06									#15
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In Civ2, helicopters were a reasonably nice unit because of their attack (equivalent to a tank's), and because of their virtually inexhaustible fuel range.

However, they had some serious drawbacks: because they could conquer cities as ground troops, they could be attacked by ground troops as well. They could also be attacked by sea units. If they were attacked by air units, however, their main fault came to light: their hit points and firepower ratings are quartered in air to air combat! So in Civ2 whenever I needed to take a city by air, my choice would always be to swamp the city with bombers from all sides and then to nonchalantly paradrop a trooper in the middle.

How have Firaxis translated this to SMAC? I do remember my one single experiment with helicopters was to build one in an attempt to take over a sea base (which I didn't realize could be taken over by ships). I don't think the attempt worked.

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"In all creation, there can be no task more onerous or tedious than that of playing God." - Stephen Fry, 'The Liar'.

	28-02-2000 06:37									#16
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Actually since you can do multiple drops in a single turn range is virtually unlimited. (Damage taken on non-base drops is the only limiting factor.)

	29-02-2000 00:15									#17
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Alinestra Covelia: Copters cannot conquer cities (use Locusts for that) and they can be attacked by non-airborne units if they "run-out of fuel" (finish the turn outside a base or airbase) - so try to avoid that. But still, they are great.

Vi Vicdi: Have it your way, but that's under "cheating" in my book.

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---LoD

He, who comprehends the past, shall conquer the present and rule the future.

[This message has been edited by LoD (edited February 28, 2000).]

	29-02-2000 01:07									#18
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In single player, I've never allowed an enemy faction to live long enough for me to bother with Space Elevator, except in games where I transcended, and thus let the pathetic AI live. Choppers aren't necessary in SP games, but they are decisively lethal in multiplayer.

Alinestra - that tactic will work against the AI, but a SAM chopper will shred all your needlejets in one turn - not as an interceptor, but in it's own turn.

Aredhran has half the formula - put a big "X" in front of those Shard Fusion choppers. In one multiplayer (PBEM) game I'm finishing up, I've constructed 34 X-Fusion Fusion and X-Shard Fusion choppers, and I have 17 of them now for the finale. The 19 that I've used (17 destroyed) have been almost exclusively the force that I've used to destroy nine enemy bases (70 population points) and over 120 enemy units, including forty supply crawlers - this against a well armed human enemy whose land mass is 14 ocean squares away from my nearest forward base. Against crawlers and formers, these high grade choppers (cheap to build) can do lethal damage at 90% damage - so you have three turns to fly oblique routes and show up in the enemy rear. When they self destruct, the power of the Shard/Fusion combo will take out any non-military units, and inflict redline damage on anything else not in a base, but in adjacent squares.

I've used choppers to plink enemy crawlers 25 squares away from my closest base - get 3-4 crawlers per chopper, and you're not only way ahead on minerals, but you've taken a good deal of production away from the other guy, until he replaces the crawlers. The maximum effective range is even further, but I haven't found anything that far out to plink.