09-11-2002 11:24									#31
	Support Apolyton

ABout the moscoe theater and from what I gather about Russians (Serb feel free to correct me )

there was going to be a mayehm.

The terrorists would blow the whole thing up and we would be counting the dead by the hundrends, 500 hundernd minimum.

If this succeded there would be celebrations in chechnya and others would be encouraged to do the same.

by eliminating the terrorists and not letting them carry out their plan the russians actually saved future lives by demonstarting (with the human cost of course... a tragedy that was necessairy because it was unavoidable) that no matter what it takes terrorists will NOT have their way.

in greece there was 2 hijacjkings off busses with albanians.

the 1st ended badly

the 2nd ended with the albanian being shot dead directly.

there was never another incident like that.


sometimes you have to take decisive action nomatter the cost and think about the future also IMO.

	09-11-2002 12:06									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Stefu It's troll! It's troll! It's big and heavy and brown! It's troll! It's troll! It's antics will cause you to frown! Everyone hates the troll! But they still answer it's call! C'mon and reply to troll! Everyone hates the troll! (Really, people, why did we abandon the troll song and have those silly ratings? I mean, ever since Fez got his hand on those and started giving them to every liberal thread they've kinda lost their meaning.)

0.1/10 ratings (or lower) are really annoying. They are also the only ratings people give. Therefore ratings are annoying.

A syllogism (sp?) by Jaguar Warrior.

	09-11-2002 20:02									#33
	Suffering from ads?

DinoDoc, do not compare modern war in Chechnja and modern terror in Moscow with WW2. Why do you always discuss countries that you do not know partculary nothing about???

	09-11-2002 20:09									#34
	Tired of ads?

Yes it's true people of Russia live in fear, and as said one russian politician

quote: Хотели как лучше, получилось как всегда. (lit: Wanted as better and came off as always)

The other russian saying is

quote: Нас Еб*т, а мы крепчаем (Us f*ck, and we grow stronger)

But it is not country's relation, it is relation of rulers.

	09-11-2002 22:24									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Bad patriotic russians. Good libertarian america.

quote: In the Kursk's case, the survivors of the explosion of an unsafe experimental torpedo were left to die under the sea two years ago because foreign rescuers might have gleaned some military secrets while saving lives.

Who the heck decided that it was unsafe or experimental?

This is trolling.

And I'm sure one can find enough examples of sacrificing people's lives for state secrets in many western countries.

quote: In the Moscow theater, hostages were knocked out by an overdose of gas intended to incapacitate their captors. Many died because officials refused to tell medical staff what gas had been used, or the antidote.

This is very inexact.

What infact happenned was bad organization. Not enough ambulances were called in time (so that not to cause suspicion).

Only several of the emergency crews got news of what anti-dote to use.

The russians miscalculated and forgot that the captives were mostly starved and dehydrated, so the gas effect was stronger on them.

quote: True, this information might be useful to other terrorists, but its release was indispensable if lives were to be saved, there and then. Given a choice between the lives of its citizens and the protection of its interests, the Russian state once again did not hesitate.

There is no reason why the gas should have been exposed to the public.

Were members of the press going to find an antidote?


It's a petty troll.

@ DD

	09-11-2002 22:57									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Siro, I must disagree. The article points out something very correct. No proper attention is given to the human casualties. You could see it during the other terrorist attacks on Russia, like the blowing of the high-rise appartment buildings. The Russian TV even didn't go live with that ****.

	09-11-2002 23:36									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Azazel - I disagree.

The russian TV didn't go live because they are less modernized IMO.

That, and the russian conflict handling method, which often sums up to "deny it". I agree it is often wrong, but sometimes it serves a point.

It would have been justified to keep the thing secret if they would have stormed the building.

It is very stupid if the terrorists can just turn on CNN to find out what the police are doing, and learn how to avoid it.

The russian TV is to a point state censored and controlled, which I agree is usually a bad thing, but it can help at times.



Let me add this point - to a measure, the method in which the Israeli TV breakes in with "urgent" news each time, is to a point a method of mind control. It creates a feeling of urgency and crisis, and clouds rational thinking in favour of anger and such.


It's like the difference between Maariv and Yedioth which exploit and support outcry and feelings of anger, and Haaretz which try to rationalize things (usually waaay too much).

	09-11-2002 23:46									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Siro, come on, they could break in with the news, just a news flash. It's all a matter of priorities.

There is a sence of disposability of human lives.

One should point out that any attempt to critize the brave fight of the Soviet defenders deserves reprimand.

	10-11-2002 03:38									#39
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

There was nothing wrong the Russian approach against terrorists, but their handling of the aftermath needs quite some improvement.

	10-11-2002 03:46									#40
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I am not talking about the Nord-Ost Fiasco, but about the apartment block bombings several years ago.

	10-11-2002 10:51									#41
	Re: Russian 'we' still crushes individual citizens Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: Crap By Konstanty Gebert blah...blah...blah... crap blah...blah...blah... Hi Serb!

Hi Dino, here I am again. (weekend)

	10-11-2002 11:10									#42
	Re: Russian 'we' still crushes individual citizens Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: By Konstanty Gebert A huge, feminine statue, sword in outstretched hand, overlooks the southern Russian city of Volgograd: the symbolic Motherland, ever ready to repel foreign aggression. It commemorates the defense of the city, then known as Stalingrad, in the winter of 1942. At least a million people -- German and Romanian invaders, Soviet defenders and civilian inhabitants -- died there in one of World War II's decisive battles. A similar memorial stands in the outskirts of St. Petersburg, known as Leningrad during the war, where hundreds of thousands of civilians starved during a three-year German siege. In both cases, Josef Stalin ordered his troops not to withdraw, and not to capitulate. This arguably contributed greatly to the German defeat. It is beyond debate that the death tolls would have been vastly lower had the cities capitulated. In many countries an order to resist at all cost would be considered criminal folly today. In Russia, then and now, Leningrad and Stalingrad are seen as shining examples of patriotism, determination and bravery, their staggering human toll a necessary price of victory. ''The individual is nonsense, the individual is zero'' wrote revolutionary poet Vladimir Mayakovsky about Vladimir Lenin. A bunch of zeros is still zero in Russia, including the 118 hostages who have died since last month's predawn raid by Russian commandos on Chechen rebels who held them in a Moscow theater. A memorial surely will be built at the site. Like the Leningrad and Stalingrad ones, or the memorial to the sailors lost when the Kursk submarine sank, it will not commemorate the horrible deaths of Russians sacrificed by their state. Rather, it will glorify the state that sent them to their end. Secrets trump lives In the Kursk's case, the survivors of the explosion of an unsafe experimental torpedo were left to die under the sea two years ago because foreign rescuers might have gleaned some military secrets while saving lives. In the Moscow theater, hostages were knocked out by an overdose of gas intended to incapacitate their captors. Many died because officials refused to tell medical staff what gas had been used, or the antidote. True, this information might be useful to other terrorists, but its release was indispensable if lives were to be saved, there and then. Given a choice between the lives of its citizens and the protection of its interests, the Russian state once again did not hesitate. It is the consistency over time and over regimes that makes Russian policy scary. Indeed, it reflects how far Russia remains from the notion of a democracy. Enemies fare even worse If Russia treats its own this way, it must be difficult for Russians to consider how their state probably treats the enemy. Yet such reflection is required if Russians are to understand what made the Moscow terrorists do what they did, and why Chechens continue to resist. Only Russian public opinion can stop this 10-year war -- but its grief now is working into the hands of Kremlin generals, who still believe, as generals will, in throwing bombs at the problem. Chechens must be terrified. At the least, Russians need to reflect on whether they want to continue to be treated by their state as expendable. Even this will be difficult, though, for much is at stake. In 1976, while crossing the campus of Moscow State University, I ran into a van surrounded by a police escort with sirens wailing. I later found out the van was bringing a sample of lunar soil recently brought in by a Soviet space probe. ''What's up?'' I asked a Russian passerby. He recognized me as a foreigner and suddenly seemed to grow taller, smiling at me with condescension as he said: ''Oh, nothing. We've just brought back a piece of the moon, that's what.'' We! He was an unfree man in an unfree country, his clothes shabby, his face aged before time -- but he was basking in the glory of the regime that had done all that to him. The price for that ''we'' was, of course, that he would be expendable, if ''we'' would decide that this would serve the cause. This is why Russian masses are not out in Red Square, demonstrating against the massacre of fellow citizens at the hands of their state. As long as this ''we'' lives, many individual ''I''s -- Russian, Chechen and others -- will yet die. Hi Serb!

And so ****ing what?
Yes, we are different SO WHAT?
This "we" lives in us since times when we were enslaved by Mongols, this "we" helped us to gain freedom, this "we" helped us to protect our motherland from bastards who wanted to conquer us. This "we' is the reason why no one was able to conquer us and no one will be untill this "we" is alive. Yes, the life of individual cost nothing in compare with life of our motherland and majority of us will sacrifice their lifes if it will be needed to save our country. This is a Russian mentality, a mentality of people who lived in extremly dangerous conditions during centuries. Try to find me another country as Russia which were attacked by enemies so frequent during its history and I bet you'll find many common with Russian in mentality of people of this country.
You Americans, never were invaded during your history, never your lands saw major destructions which war and invasion brings. If you've faced only 1/10 of misery throught Russia went, then your mentality with all those shiny "life of individual is everything" would changed to "defend your motherland untill last drop of your blood".
So who the **** are you to judge Russian mentality? A citizen of country which is 5 times younger then mine? With the same success you can lecturing your father how to make children properly. (It's a Russian common expression "ne uchi otza ebatsya". Don't take it personaly)

We'll never be like you DD, we worship to Rodina, you worship to allmighty dollar.
So what you was trying to say by this crappy article?

	10-11-2002 11:16									#43
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by BeBro Question is, if this "we" is only a soviet product, or wheather such thinking is much older in Russia...

MUCH older. In fact I believe that Russia had become first communist state only because of this "we", because of our specific mentality.

	10-11-2002 11:22									#44
	Re: Re: Re: Russian 'we' still crushes individual citizens Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The author works for the Gazeta Wyborcza. Go play with them if you insist on begging for a link to an opinion article.

Why I'm not surprised?
This article is typical Polish anti-Russian whine. Those guys still unhappy that their dicks were/are much shorter then Russians.
Am I right Heresson?

	10-11-2002 11:25									#45
	Inflate your Upload Space

Whoa!

	10-11-2002 11:27									#46
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Jules So when Hitler invaded the Soviet Union in 1941, proclaiming a racial war in the East to enslave the Slavic peoples and secure Lebensraum for the master German race in Mein Kampf, the Russians were just supposed to roll over and die?

Yes, this is what DD and esp. David Floyd would prefer to see. (you may look on my signature)

quote: Or is this just a sneaky way to attack Russia's communist past?

No, it was personal troll against me.

Btw, DD is your crappy shop part IV already open?

Hey, Paik how do you think, perhaps it's time to warm his place again?

	10-11-2002 11:29									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II Whoa!

What?
Come on say something.
DD planed this thread as Russian flag waving and I will continue the show untill will be banned.

	10-11-2002 11:37									#48
	Remove this text

This article seems to prove the point of Russian national identity superceding individual rights by basically practicing the same methods it accuses the Russians of. It takes a few individual cases (some of which are things that the U.S. probably would have done as well) and applies very broad strokes. The fiasco at the theater therefore means that it is the fault of an entirely society rather than the mistake of a few individuals. It talks about Russians in the most abstract terms possible, which I think is always folly when talking about a country and its people, and backs the conclusion with specific instances without taking the other variables into account.

And the "moon rock" example can be tossed out for the simple fact that it is from the period of the Soviet regime... you can't argue that nothing has changed after a regime change if you base it on situations still within the old regime.

I would go as far as to say that the reasoning used by this author is the same as that used by the Arabs who committed the atrocities of 9-11. It presumes that the specific actions of a country's government automatically reflect how the society functions... thereby blurring the line between individual and nation. The author's argument is hypocritical.

	10-11-2002 13:33									#49
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The fiasco at the theater ...
WTF
Fiasco for whom? For terrorists who were neutralized before they blow-up the whole building? Yes, for those guys it was total fiasco.
For Russia it was victory. Almost 800 hostages were saved. Everyone of them count this day as their second birthday and saying that specnaz returned them from realm of the dead.
Perhaps somebody could point me another such operation let's see- huge building, huge amount of terrorists- 50, huge amount of hostages about- 900, high concentration of hostages about 900 people in one single auditorium AND AMONG THEM 25 suicide bombers each carrying about 2kg of explosives, two HUGE bombs powerfull enough not only to destroy whole theater, but also to inflict huge damage in radius of 1 km.
If you'll show to me special services of which country managed to solve situation, disable more them 30 bombs, 50 terrorists and lost less then 15% of hostages in such difficult circumstsnces, I'll admit that special services of this country are better then Russian specnaz.
Go ahead and show me one single exmple how similar situation was solved with less casulaties among hostages.
And please no bullshit about "what if", "what that" and the same crap.
Facts, only facts please.
Untill somebody will do it, I'll consider talks about fiasco as crappy cheap trolling, combined aroggance and ignorance, anti-Russian whine about red-ass evil commies and the same ****.

have a nice day.

	10-11-2002 13:43									#50
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Azazel I am not talking about the Nord-Ost Fiasco, but about the apartment block bombings several years ago.

Blah...blah...blah...
Call to relatives and ask them.
During three days of hostages crisis ALL TV chanels showed the situation on-line. EVERY MINUTE.
As for bombings, it was 3 years ago, but iirc begining of resque opreation was ahown on-line and later there was emregency TV news quite often. And btw, it happen at night time when our country was sleeping, after explosion what do you think TV should show on-line, ruins?
They showed them and showed how resque operation is going. What else they could shown?

	10-11-2002 14:25									#51
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Serb You Americans, never were invaded during your history, never your lands saw major destructions which war and invasion brings.

Not entirely correct. During the War of 1812, we were invaded by the British from Canada. Washington DC and several other cities were burned to the ground. And the Civil War was pretty destructive too, especially in the South, with a half million dead.

But you're right that your nation has a much longer history and has suffered a great deal more from war. I for one am glad that Russia is still standing strong. I don't think it's necessary for us to force our culture down your throat in order for our two countries to get along.

	10-11-2002 15:11									#52
	Suffering from ads?

Thanks.
You are right of course, my 'never were invaded' is incorect exaggeration, but I'm still absolutely sure that people of our countries have different mentality, because of different circumstances our coutries lived and it's absolutely normal.

Btw, where is the starter of this Ruso-bashing? Come-on DinoDoc, show yourself.

	10-11-2002 20:26									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Yes, we are different SO WHAT?

like hell you are

quote: Yes, the life of individual cost nothing in compare with life of our motherland and

if you think so ok, but dont decieve yourselves all russians do. I bet most do but only if we are not talking about their life

quote: majority of us will sacrifice their lifes if it will be needed to save our country.

bullshit

quote: This is a Russian mentality, a mentality of people who lived in extremly dangerous conditions during centuries. Try to find me another country as Russia which were attacked by enemies so frequent during its history

blah blah blah, find me an area in europe that didnt see plenty of war and misery

quote: We'll never be like you DD, we worship to Rodina, you worship to allmighty dollar.

you have been brainwashed. you see, you worship the dollar too

and tales of ancient glory dont feed people you know.

russia has no more 'we' mentality then any other country in the world.

I agree that russian govt. systems always encouraged uniformity of people, and people learned to go with the flow, not to express their opinions, not to be too noticeable etc

the highest straw is the first to get cut after all

but this is not natural or voluntary. the russians are as diverse and as individual as any other peoples

	10-11-2002 20:34									#54
	Increase Your PM Length

Good ending Croat.

	10-11-2002 20:52									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Союз нерушимый республик свободных
Сплотила навеки великая Русь!
Да здравствует созданный волей народов
Великий могучий Советский Союз!

Пр.
Славься отечество наше свободное!
Дружбы народов надежный оплот
Партия Ленина сила народная
Нас к торжеству коммунизма ведет!

Сквозь грозы сияло нам солнце свободы
И Ленин великий нам путь озарил
На правое дело он поднял народы
На труд и на подвиги нас вдохновил

Пр.
Слався отечество наше свободное!
Дружбы народов надежный оплот
Партия Ленина сила народная
Нас к торжеству коммунизма ведет!

В победе великих идей коммунизма
Мы видим грядущее нашей страны
и красному знамени нашей отчизны
Мы будем всегда беззаветно верны!

Пр.
Славься отечество наше свободное!
Дружбы народов надежный оплот
Партия Ленина сила народная
Нас к торжеству коммунизма ведет!

	10-11-2002 20:54									#56
	Inflate your Upload Space

Союз нерушимый дорог с дураками
Оставил нам гимн этот, словно клеймо,
По воле придурков, что избраны нами,
Мы будем вставать под любое дерьмо.

Славься, отечество, наше стабильное,
Hаших партийцев последний оплот.
Сила чиновников, сила дебильная
Hас к разоренью надежно ведет!

Сквозь годы нам светят Ежов и Ягода
И Берия ясный нам путь озарил,
Hазвав пол-России врагами народа,
Он главной идеею нас одарил.

Славься, отечество, наше раздорное -
Образ врага - наш надёжный оплот.
Hенависть вечная - сила задорная,
Что нас вперед то и дело ведет!

Hас Брежнев сквозь звезды взрастил и взлелеял,
А с ним Шеварднадзе, Алиев - ЦК!
Мы помним, как раньше с трибун мавзолея
Hам делали ручкой: пока, мол, пока.

Славься, отечество, наше раздольное,
В мире крупнее земли не сыскать.
Много партийная власть произвольная,
Будет кому, что осталось, раздать.

Hам Ленин предрёк власть кухарки с сосиской,
К нам Сталин без визы являлся и вот,
Продравшись теперь сквозь партийные списки,
Hас может возглавить любой идиот!

	10-11-2002 20:58									#57
	Support Apolyton

Serb, некоторый люди типа ДиноДока любят рассуждать о странах к культуре быту и философии которых не относятся и ни малейшего понятия не имеют.

All, simply people who drink a lot of vodka are more likely to say 'we'.

	11-11-2002 00:49									#58
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Serb, ya vsetaki dumayu chto ne sovsem pravilno operirovali.

	11-11-2002 00:54									#59
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Speak English please.

	11-11-2002 00:59									#60
	Mission accomplished. I got more fish to take the bait than I had hoped. Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Serb Go ahead and show me one single exmple how similar situation was solved with less casulaties among hostages.

You could have told the doctors what the gas was and how to counteract its effects and there would have been a lot less casualties among the hostages. But of course, they were irrelevent when compared to the value of State secrets.