09-11-2002 07:33									#1
	An Easy Way to Make the AI 3 Times as Strong... Remove this text

... Make the AI upgrade its units.

Seriously though. I can name a thousand instances when if the AI had upgraded its units to the maximum tech that it owned (often the same as mine or even higher in some cases) then I would have been in serious trouble. If there was ONE improvement I could ask Soren to make it would be that one.

	09-11-2002 07:42									#2
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I'm not sure why they don't always upgrade. It might be that they don't have the cash.

	09-11-2002 07:48									#3
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quote: If there was ONE improvement I could ask Soren to make it would be that one.

Well, if I could do the same, it would be worker efficiency (IMHO, that's where the AI loses the game )

hmm, Warp, I think you're right.
When I check on a AI with money, his units are usualy pretty much up-to-date.

	09-11-2002 08:01									#4
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Unit upgrading works fine in Modded CTP2, and it does wonders for the AI.

	09-11-2002 09:12									#5
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I'm pretty well convinced that the AI will upgrade if it has the cash. But the AI's ability to manage cash (adjust sliders as appropriate and save a sufficient nest egg for upgrades) is lacking. The AI could use an improvement there.

But alva848 is right - worker efficiency is the AI's biggest weakness (city build decisions are a close second).

Catt

	09-11-2002 09:47									#6
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I still think the weakest portion of the AI is it's ability to fight wars. If two things got changed, the AI would be infinitely harder to beat. First upgrading (whatever the root of the problem, if it's fixed it will make the AI more difficult to beat), and second stack-movement and stack-attacking. The AI will usually start off a war with a nominal stack, but after that most of its units will end up being destroyed piecemeal.

	09-11-2002 20:18									#7
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Trip;
You are 100% correct (as usual), but my guess is that, improving AI warfare ability is a very tough(read expensive) thing to do.


I've tried once to play a game completely automated (governor + workers fully automated and not interfering with build queus). All I was in charge off, whas unit movement. Well, I can tell you, it's best to play a couple of levels lower then usual

	09-11-2002 20:55									#8
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I have to agree with Alva848 here. If the the AI followed a better worker and governor management scheme they'd have about 20-25% more gold and shields every turn. This would make them much more of a challenge. Maybe they'd even upgrade their units

	09-11-2002 22:36									#9
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They need money. They need to adjust sliders. They need to use stacks.

They'd need to be human.

	10-11-2002 02:41									#10
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In my mod , each population laborer needs 1 Gold for support, but all the tiles make more much money.. the AI's seem to work much better with this (judging from their research rates at least)
This ought to make expansion slower, but I might have to change anarchy, at the moment when you go anarchy you always go into the red and keep losing buildings.. still who said anarchy was nice?

I think the CASH problems arise because the AI dosen't save its money, hopefully PTW's stock exchanges and Commerce docks will help.

You can probably reduce the price of upgrading by change the general settings for rushing money (this might affect upgrade prices?).

IT would be good if disbanding units gave more production to cities too.. I sometimes disband a conscripted Infantry in a new conquered city to help build a courthouse etc, the AI should use this.

(oops this is the quick reply box.. not that quick :P )

	10-11-2002 20:25									#11
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Anarchy can be nasty.
All those unit costs...
And no money...



*Gags*

	10-11-2002 22:19									#12
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I think it's a money issue as well.

With PtW, I've noticed the AI being far more challenging in wars, sending in multiple stacks of 2-3 units into my territory. The Persians gave me a beating recently by using this tactic to send in Immortals. I couldn't produce my knights and medieval infantry fast enough and get them to the front to fend it off.

Of course, once railroads come into play, the human player still has an almost insurmountable edge over the computer AI, thanks to infinite movement.

ANYhoo, now that I've digressed, I think on the higher difficulty levels, the AI should get a discount on their upgrades. Yeah, some say it's cheating, but it would make it more challenging, which is what matters to me.

	10-11-2002 23:25									#13
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Agreed. REALLY, this would be an easy thing to add for Firaxis. Very elementary, and very very true...

Hey, the fire of axis or axis of fire, hear ya hear ya!!! You should listen this little emperor

	10-11-2002 23:46									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

I don't completely disagree here, but I can allready hear people starting to whine that the AI needs even more cheats.

	11-11-2002 00:24									#15
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quote: Originally posted by hexagonian Unit upgrading works fine in Modded CTP2, and it does wonders for the AI.

Just for interest, how big is the bonus the "AI" gets in Cradle in order to do this? 400%? 500%?

	11-11-2002 02:49									#16
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AI bonuses in modded CTP2 (Cradle)...

-- anywhere from 110%-140% for civs in front of the human player on the power graph on Impossible for Cradle.
-- 400% to 500% if the computer AI is hopelessly behind the human player.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't civ3 bonuses along the lines of 200% on the highest level for all civs???

-- as for upgrades, the AI upgrades for free - the human pays a gold cost, but gold is acutally easily generated in CTP2, so a good player usually has no problem covering the costs.

Of course there are cheats built into both the civ3 and CTP2 systems. I can always point to the civ3 AI beelining to undefended cities and beelineing to hidden strategic resources.

The point I'm trying to make is that if the civ3 AI could upgrade units, it would help the civ3 AI immensely.

In CTP2 we have the tools to alter the game to handle a variety of things that players may want to include in the game, whereas civ3 seems to have less flexability to impliment those changes. For players who may want to see a civ-style game include some of these issues, CTP2 is a good alternative.

Knowledge is good...

	11-11-2002 03:00									#17
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quote: Originally posted by hexagonian Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't civ3 bonuses along the lines of 200% on the highest level for all civs???

Yes, you are wrong. The AI bonus +67% at deity (10/6), +25% at emperor (10/8), +11% at monarch (10/9), 0% at regent (10/10). At warlord the human gets a bonus of 20% (12/10) and at chieftain of 100% (20/10).

quote: -- as for upgrades, the AI upgrades for free - the human pays a gold cost

Thought so. No reason for gloating.

quote: The point I'm trying to make is that if the civ3 AI could upgrade units, it would help the civ3 AI immensely.

It eagerly upgrades, if it has money. If not, you should move a level up. If you're already at deity, you can mod (yes, indeed) the AI bonus up to 900%.

quote: Knowledge is good...

ACK.

	11-11-2002 04:27									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Thought so. No reason for gloating...

I'm with Boris on this - cheats do not bother me if the end result is a better game for the player... Actually the civ3 AI beelines to resourses/undefended cities are somewhat minor, IMO.

So what you are saying is that on Deity, the civ3 AI does not have a problem upgrading units? Are all the spearmen gone by Modern times? (...almost forgot that spearmen can beat tanks, so maybe upgrading is over-rated.)

Or is that still a problem, even on the highest levels, and players have to artificially boost the AI even more to cover the costs??? If so, it works out to be the same type of cheat that has been modded into CTP2...

I have said it before - there are a lot of good things about civ3 that I like - and there are a lot of things that I feel are flawed though (and Boris' assertion about Railroads is a big one for me)

And yes, CTP2 does have its flaws too!!!

	11-11-2002 06:24									#19
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quote: Originally posted by hexagonian So what you are saying is that on Deity, the civ3 AI does not have a problem upgrading units? Are all the spearmen gone by Modern times?

On deity, you will have problems to upgrade your units much more than the AI, I guarantee you. Cavalries (AI) against Spearmen (you), anyone? It's still beatable, after all it's only a stupid AI, but it's damn hard.

The AI upgrades units in fact better than the human does, given it has money. At the higher level usually it has plenty of it, at least beginning in the industrial age, but often earlier. It upgrades units equally in all cities, perhaps it should favor border cities first. So if its cities have an average of 3 defenders, it upgrades first one of them in all cities, then the second in all cities and last the third. Try to attack a civ shortly after it discovered Replaceable parts. You'll be surprised, how many infantries you meet.

It upgrades defenders properly. What really is the problem is, that it hangs around too long with obsolete attackers, namely Swordsmen and Longbowmen. They don't upgrade in the original game, and the AI does never disband units. So if it didn't have a war for a long time, it may go after you in the industrial age with swords and longbows, because its silly indicator tells, that it has enough offensive units and it won't build the modern ones. That problem is gone with PTW, as both units now have an upgrade path.

quote: (...almost forgot that spearmen can beat tanks, so maybe upgrading is over-rated.)

Aren't we gloating again? Well, I play Civ3 for a year now, and didn't see that infamous anti tank spearman yet. I only once had a Modern Armor retreating from a battle with a spearman (the 6th defender of Lyons), but not dying. That was it, for perhaps 40 or 50 full games I had.

quote: Or is that still a problem, even on the highest levels, and players have to artificially boost the AI even more to cover the costs???

The "vanilla" AI is competitive enough for the "vanilla" (average) player, and doesn't need to be modded. Sure, good players will always find a way to beat it and will try to modify the game to make it better. See player1's mod for instance, or the Apolyton university mod. Sure, Civ3 is not as moddable as CtP2, but at least the mods are stable, cause no confusions and crashes.

	11-11-2002 06:41									#20
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The best way I reason to make the AI tougher would be to give it economic advantages then. I don't really like the concept of the AI starting with 3 cities when I only get one (on Deity, start near an AI civ or two and you're dead, guaranteed), but if they have better units with which to fight then I can live with some AI cheating in that respect.

	11-11-2002 09:33									#21
	Remove this text

I've posited for a long time that on-hand gold has been the biggest problem for the AI civs... no longer.

Gotta new concept for you guys: we're all seeing an improvement in the AI civs in PTW... I think it is exacerbating the winner / loser cycle, and thus 'selecting' targets for the human player.