09-11-2002 07:56									#1
	Pre-poll discussion on Democracy: Whether and When Increase the size of your Attachments

We have just received knowledge of democracy from the English (in return for spices). As such, we need to determine IF we should switch to that form of government - and, if so, when we should do so.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS

Whether

Should we switch to democracy at all in the near future?

When

In the event that you answer the above question with a "yes", when do you believe the opportune time to switch would be and why?

---------------

This discussion should be prioritized toward creating options in a poll that will ask whether and when a switch to democracy should occur.

---------------

POLL FORMAT THUSFAR:

Should we switch to democracy and, if so, when?
1. No
2. Yes, immediately - or failing that - as soon as possible
3. Yes, ONLY when the Golden Age ends or thereafter

For purposes of determing the success of #2, votes from #3 will be counted as "no" votes. For the success of determing #3, however, votes for #2 will be considered "yes" votes.

Any additional options suggested can be debated and added here.

Last edited by Arnelos on 09-11-2002 at 09:20

	09-11-2002 08:18									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yes we should. Better corruption/waste control thoughout our nation. Less chance of having a city flip to someone else. Better chance of them flipping to us (if they aren't in Demo). Because we ARE a democracy and will be in our government too.

When: right after the GA is over (shoud be in 990 or 1000, I think), but not during it.

E_T

	09-11-2002 09:02									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Oh, just thought of another issue to ask...

Should the whether and when be in the same poll or different polls?

For instance:

EXAMPLE FOR SAME POLL

Should we switch to democracy and, if so, when?
1. No
2. Yes, immediately - or failing that - as soon as possible
3. Yes, ONLY when the Golden Age ends or thereafter

For purposes of determing the success of #2, votes from #3 will be counted as "no" votes. For the success of determing #3, however, votes for #2 will be considered "yes" votes.

EXAMPLE FOR TWO SEPERATE POLLS

Should we switch to democracy?
1. No
2. Yes

If we do switch to democracy, when should the switch take place?
1. Immediately
2. When Golden Age ends

--------------

Which of these two ways of polling this question do people prefer. Personally, I prefer doing a single poll. I'm open to other ways of doing this, however (as evidenced by my asking the question).

Last edited by Arnelos on 09-11-2002 at 09:22

	09-11-2002 09:07									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

If you have two polls, make sure that you link them together. I think one would do, but that's me.

E_T

	09-11-2002 09:21									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Ok, after altering that poll idea many times, I'm finally happy with it...

	09-11-2002 10:46									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I'd suggest everyone read the United Apolyton Despots thread before voting. Don't let the 3 pages scare you; there are no long arguments, and it spilled over to the 3rd page because of a single post.

I think the most important thing to note is the consequences, both RP and game-oriented, of a switch to Democracy. Sure, we could just continue on our Oligarchic course, plotting wars and sending our soldiers into battle. But that sort of disconnect would be anything but fun, since we seem to agree the game is almost done; what's left is roleplay, debates, formation of the upcoming senate, and other things out of the actual game like the mini-game. The only challenge left I see is gaining research parity (and perhaps a lead); interesting, but not as fun as gambling the standing army of Apolytonia in a rush on America, or racing to the lost civs. If we switch to a democracy, we should act like one; that will mean hanging up our bows in favor of shields (err, retiring our Cavalry and training some more Muskets). Heck, even if we don't want to, we may have to; WW gets quite bad in prolonged wars.

I'm not sure whether or not I support a switch. But I'd like to see more debate then what the poll options should be, so I figured I'd throw this out here.

	09-11-2002 11:03									#7
	Support Apolyton

Newly founded democracies throughout history have actually been MORE prone than other regime forms to engage in warfare... consolidated democracies, on the other hand, have historically been the least likely to declare war on other states.

So perhaps we have some bad old days still in us (at least for a while...)

	09-11-2002 13:03									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I prefer Arnelos's poll suggestion, that is polling this issue in a single poll.
As for my answer, it's switch immediately after the GA is over of course.

	09-11-2002 22:21									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I feel there is no debate about whether we should switch to Democracy. It's clearly the best form of government in the game and since we play in a Democracy Game where we elect leaders, follow the rule of law, have rights, etc, I feel that we ought to have our nation's form of government match our own.

The only debate is when. With our religious nature we could switch immediately to democracy. I'd just like to hear reason why we shouldn't switch right now.

--Togas

	09-11-2002 23:23									#10
	Support Apolyton

The trade benefits of Democracy vs Republic are grossly over rated by most Civ3 players. Principally they remember and yearn for that game of yesteryear's response to Democracy.

Having said that, the worker speedup benefits of Democracy vs all other forms of government are under rated.

We still have vast tracts of jungle to chop, and we are rapidly approaching Steam Power. Our empire is vast and there is a huge pent up demand for worker activity just ahead.

The downside to Democracy has also changed vs Civ3. Gone is the pesky habit of the senate to override reasonable and necessary wars. We now have a window that allows for modest wars of liberation before war weariness sets in.

Now let me address our needs for furthur warfare. Look at our Greek border. Very long, with an ugly salient caused by the foul cities of Mycenae, Delphi, Argos, Hearkleia, and Sparta. Having spent some time (as a low level aide) in a General Officer's field command center, I can assure you that maps like this make the General's senior staff scurry with planning activity, for they know that the commander will be asking for them soon.

All in all, I can support Democracy after the Alex has retreated to Thessalonica and established his Palace there.

	10-11-2002 05:28									#11
	Tired of ads?

Roadcage, this general has the same thoughts, thats a very tempting target and with good luck could have most of it in a very very few turns.
Aggie