09-11-2002 09:32									#1
	Pbem-bugs Get a bigger avatar today!

How many PBEM-BUGS do you know already... and how many ways to cheat? I was very frustrated as i noticed that i can load a pbem save game as a single player game without any password restrictions :-/ i think it would be very important that all these bugs should be fixed with the next patch :-/ maybe we should make a bug list and send it to firaxis asap?

	09-11-2002 09:43									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Firaxis is aware of that problem.

And yes, it is a problem. All those who play the game for each team make sure you load the game from the title screen. Beyond that, there's basically just 'annoyances' with PBEM. You can't see other civ's moves at all, even if they're within visible range. You don't see battles, you don't see anything like that. Therefore, cross-documentation between teams may be a good way to eliminate that problem (and a good way of recording the civss history).

	09-11-2002 09:59									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

So, would you recommend that there be a neutral "historian" to collect and record all of the teams moves? It does sound like a good idea, not only to prevent any mix-ups, but also just for posterities sake. Who knows, maybe there'll be some brilliant tactical moves that will forvever be emblazoned in Civ history

	09-11-2002 10:01									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Nice to hear that firaxis knows the bug .

If i understand you in the right way your proposal means that Tribe A not only sends Tribe B the save-file but also a short summary about the military events... i.e.: "450 B.C. our swordsman attacked your city X and died..". (an action which Tribe B never would notice without this report)...

	09-11-2002 10:53									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Exactly Borc.

The only potential problem I see is accurate reports, or them being too vague. It should be a unwritten (or written perhaps ) rule that the person that plays the turn for each team should write up a log for each part, and is required to inform a team if their units/civs/etc. was attacked on that turn.

A neutral historian could be found by some means to take in and organize all of the information collected by the team member playing the game, for some kind of historical log for the future.

	09-11-2002 18:42									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Doing these kinds of reports should be the work of someone from each team- they organize the information coming from someone who played the game for their team, and divide it up:

1)reports for each civ: We attacked you, moved towards your city, pillaged this square, etc. These reprts are for the recipient team only, and it is free to do whatever it pleases with it (publish it, keep it secret)

2)Reports for your own members, includes all those reports that were sent to other teams, as well as reports recieved from the other teams. Also Any other important issues that aren't accesible to those who only have the save and for those who don't have it at all.

3)General reports for the community: some outlines should be agreed upon- What is everyone's right to know, or what is possible for anyone who plays SP game to know but not for PBEM player- like who builds which wonder, etc.

	27-11-2002 19:30									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I am really frustrated... the bug i mentioned at the top of this thread was not fixed by firaxis newest patch 114f.
ITS SOOOOOO STUPID... i can load a pbem game which should be password protected and its NOOOT protected!
What a ***** can somebody explain how we can handle this?

	27-11-2002 19:59									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

you don't see enemy "movements" but you still see the the enemy. If an enemy which you are at war with has a unit that is beside one of your units when you saved out and sent the game on, you should expect that you might get attacked prior to getting the game back. I'm not sure why someone would need to tell you these things.

[edit]: maybe that is a risk you take by sending forces out into the field... not having them report back in the next day

	27-11-2002 20:03									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Thats not the problem...! i load the game (not from the title screen but from inside the game), just a click! and i see EVERYTHING! cheating is so easy that everybodywill cheat only because he is a bit tired or because he clicks on the wrong save game

	28-11-2002 03:03									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Keeping a log sounds like a great idea. But just remember, don't report any moves that deals with other teams or the moves that they can't see

and well ruby here's a scenario... you are out at a field. When you moved up, the fog of war revealed both Lux armada and the GoS, your two most hated enemies. Your stack of 45 spearmen are gone. So is both the Lux and the GoS. Question remains then.. Did GoS defeat your stack and Lux conunter attack GoS's stack or did Lux struck your stack retreated and GoS took another path out of your field of view? Or did GoS attack yo, defeated and Lux mopped whatever that is left? Not having a log does make a considerbale amount of confusion.

	28-11-2002 18:03									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

hm, obviously nobody sees the problem, i try it again:

1) i already have a ptw game open
2) you send me your pbem save file
3) i save the file into the .../civ3/civ3ptw/saves/ folder
4) i switch back to my civ game
5) i think: "what a stupid game do i play! wouldn't it be much more fun to load the pbem game instead ...!"
6) i chose the option "load game" and (because i did not load the save file from the title screen) what do i see? YOUR CAPITAL, YOUR CIV, EVERYTHING!

	28-11-2002 19:50									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

Borc: Yeah we know. Just keep repeating it until everyone knows exactly how do do it :P

	28-11-2002 20:22									#13
	Remove this text

redstar: if it would be hidden & secret then i would be very quiet! believe me... but the problem is so evident that all team leaders should discuss it asap... if 50 players will load the start position next week how many of them you think will make it in the wrong way???

why do we have secret forums if the save file is not save!

	28-11-2002 21:44									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

We are going to have to trust people.

Anbody who cheats deliberately is a dirty rotten cheating evil cheat.

The biggest problem is that somebody will quite innocently load up the save game the wrong way and spoil things. I can't see anything we can do to stop this happening. Accidents will happen.

What do you think we can do to stop this Borc? That's the way the game is right now, we can't change it because we're not Firaxis.

Everybody should be very very careful.

	28-11-2002 21:48									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

my small idea is that every team gives the save file only to very very few ministers... and that they all concentrate on making screenshots for their team members... and we all have to make sure that firaxis tries to fix this stupid little bug for the next patch... if anybody here has some good connections to firaxis, please help...!

	28-11-2002 21:50									#16
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yes, they should fix this stupid bug as soon as possible (it should have been in 1.14f ).

Who each team gives the save file to is up to them, but I agree that in most cases it would be best if as few people had access to it as possible.

	28-11-2002 22:12									#17
	Remove this text

I think people of apolytonia will have far better conduct of morality and ethics than to see other player's cities.

But it could still happen accidentally, so we have to minimize the chance that we may cheat thru accident. (Like reminding all people to load from title screen)

	28-11-2002 23:26									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

yes accidentally... that's why! i play a pbem game for 50 turns now against our president and every day i say to myself... borc! don' t forget to load the game on the right way... don't click around with your incredible click speed rate you have at work...

	29-11-2002 00:08									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

And up till now it works! It's me Borc is playing against, though to the given cicumstances we play together against a powerfull AI that Borc has set up....

But we have to be careful and i agree that you have to trust each other not to cheat.

	29-11-2002 19:11									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

If the accident happens, one will realize very quickly that an error has occurred. The map would quickly reveal their error. So an honest person must quickly quit the game, and minimal damage has occurred.

Again, it comes down to a matter of trust. Will an honest mistake become an opportunistic event? The player must immediately quit the game and reload correctly.

	29-11-2002 19:18									#21
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

in our team only 4 people have ptw at the moment... but in some weeks the most of us will have it... anyway our team will try to find a way to make quick a lot of screenshots so that we have to give the save file only to 3-4 people...