09-11-2002 15:43									#1
	Will other civs attitude be influenced when you attack someone they don't know? Support Apolyton

I'm just wondering - the concrete situation is as follows:

The Iroquois in my game don't have contact to any other civ and they have just one city, but unfortunately, it's in an area I badly want - will the other civs attitude towards me be influenced when I just exterminate them?

My common sense tells me it should not, but on the other hand - it's civ3 ...

BTW: Respawning civs are enabled, so I'm not sure if they will respawn later and "tell" the others about my absolutely unprovoked assault - does a respawned civ remember who erased them?

Any suggestions welcome

Last edited by Cagliostro on 09-11-2002 at 15:51

	09-11-2002 16:04									#2
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I attacked Zulu nation on isolated island and no-one actually knew directly of them but wanted contact in the diplomacy screen.

I wiped them out as only two cities. No-one said anything.

But a word of caution - in another game Japan owned a tiny three city corner of my continent and I eventually had to wipe them out to get at nice oil deposit for modern era. Everybody knew they were there but the other civs did and said nothing about it.

So - just save the game and try it. With it being CIV3 as you say you just can't predict- but thats a good thing.

Regards
Sun_Tzu

	09-11-2002 16:38									#3
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Thanks - I think I think I'll let it be for now, because I'm quite uncertain about what will be when they respawn after 20 moves (taking 15 minutes each...) with everyone allready being annoyed to furious with me for no apparent reason - and I don't want to risk any war.

I think I'll try boosting my surrounding city's cultural value with lots of money to assimilate them that way (they're in stone age, I have industrialization) - I hope that works out (or is there any rule saying: A civs last city/capital can't be conquered by cultural means?).

	09-11-2002 16:46									#4
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I saw on a thread somewhere that any city can be captured by culture. It just gets much harder if it is the last city of a people. I have never managed this.

If you are far superior to everybody in military strength and advancements the AI show respect and may say nothing anyway.

Regards
Sun_Tzu

	09-11-2002 16:48									#5
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Another thought if you are so far ahead, maybe in the game they respawned once already. You will have to watch the end of game movie to see if that is the case.

Regards
Sun_Tzu

	09-11-2002 16:48									#6
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From what I have seen, however, the AI Civs will tell each other if they witness your brutality upon a third party. For example, say that you are the Romans, and you share a continent with the Greeks and the Carthiginians. You kill the Carthiginians, and the Greeks witness this. Later on, the Greeks will tell the AI Civs that they encounter of your treatment of the Carthiginians even though those other AI Civs have themselves never met the Carthiginians.

	09-11-2002 17:25									#7
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@Ijuin: That's my point: There are no witnesses - they don't know anyone except me - would be a perfect crime, if it - well - wasn't civ

@Sun Tzu: That's my problem: I'm not far superior to everyone (not in power and not in technology...) - stronger than all my neighbours, yes, but I'm playing on that 256² world map, 32 civ scenario that came with the game since the dawn of time as the polish on monarch level - India and China are superpowers - they could crush me like nothing. And I guess there are 5 more civs I would have a hard time dealing with.

North america is mainly unpopulated, because the Iroquois couldn't expand due to severe barbarian activity (there are really hundreds of them - no exaggaration - I'm wondering how they managed to stay alive at all, but that's the explanation why they don't know anyone and are technologically backwards).
They are not respawned however - still in their original starting location and I watched the movie - but how would that affect my problem anyway?

None of the other cultures knows about the american continent (I don't give them my maps since I started colonizing it) and due to that, noone knows the Iroquois - not even their south american neighbours - there is no way for them to get through the barbarians with their tech - even I am having a hard time cleansing it out with around 50 riflemen because there are so many of them...

Last edited by Cagliostro on 09-11-2002 at 17:35

	10-11-2002 15:06									#8
	Put an end to popups!

Well if there are no witnesses at all, then nobody will be the wiser to your actions. What I meant with my above post is that an AI Civ does not need to have personally met the victim Civ in order to know of your treachery--they can learn about it secondhand or third-hand from somebody who has.

	10-11-2002 15:17									#9
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I'm well aware of that - actually it's my problem: Let's assume I eliminate the iroquois now - they would know I betrayed them - then, centuries later, they respawn and tell everyone they meet what a traitor I am (if a respawned civ remembers who betrayed them - one of my original questions...).
I don't have the best reputation in my game anyway(don't really know why - never betrayed anyone), but I want to avoid war with some real civ - if the iros would give the others a real reason to mistrust me, by respawning and telling about my betrayal, diplomacy would get even harder for me...

	10-11-2002 20:53									#10
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by sun_tzu_159
I saw on a thread somewhere that any city can be captured by culture. It just gets much harder if it is the last city of a people. I have never managed this.

... I believe the last city, being "auto-palaced", is immune...

	11-11-2002 00:04									#11
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quote: Originally posted by candybo quote: Originally posted by sun_tzu_159 I saw on a thread somewhere that any city can be captured by culture. It just gets much harder if it is the last city of a people. I have never managed this. ... I believe the last city, being "auto-palaced", is immune...

That is correct

	11-11-2002 00:30									#12
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Actually, a poster named miccofl posted a screenshot of an AI civ's capitol being converted -- it was recent, and in the general civ3 forum -- I never would've guessed it was possible to flip a capitol (and the flip in question was the civ's last city, so it resulted in the elimination of the civ!).

miccofl used propaganda, so it wasn't a pure, random flip, but it certainly highlighted that a flip of a capitol is possible.

Catt

	11-11-2002 19:58									#13
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Hmmm.... How 'bout that?!?

	11-11-2002 23:14									#14
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Back to the original question:

In the Strategy forum, we call a variation of this the "Arrian Deception," as he was the first person to really pursue this strategy. His primary goal is often to destroy, by any means necessary, all of the AI civs on his own continent prior to communications with AI civs elsewhere. Being a psycho bastard is fun!

Re-spawning is not an issue, because that can only take place on an AI civ's original continent (and yes, re-spawned AI civs have long memories).

	12-11-2002 00:07									#15
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Respawn is not an issue as I tturn it off.

	12-11-2002 00:18									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Re-spawning is not an issue, because that can only take place on an AI civ's original continent (and yes, re-spawned AI civs have long memories).

Thanks - I don't need it anymore cause in between, I managed to colonize north-america, became the most advanced civ and made China and India bash their heads - now I'm just starting to declare war on everyone and raping the planet (I allways do that - and since I don't want all the cities, I make everything uninhabitable with nukes - radiation ruling the nation . It's just a matter of timing - my personal goal is to leave earth as devastated as possible, before my spaceship reaches AC ), but still it's good to know for future games .

	12-11-2002 01:35									#17
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If the civ has no contact with any other civ, no one else will know about it (unless of course they respawn... which is why I always turn respawning off). I make it a point to annihilate my nearest AI opponent before they can make contact with anyone else, and I'll frequently take an active role in making sure they don't make contact.

	12-11-2002 06:46									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Zurai ...and I'll frequently take an active role in making sure they don't make contact.

I like that.

	12-11-2002 19:41									#19
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Theseus,

Arrian is going to have a tough time doing that now: the AI trades contacts more readily than advances now. I keep getting contacted by other civs that I haven't met yet let alone even seen their scouting unit.

The last game I started had dear old Katherine and the Russians doing their best to crowd me out of existance (8 cities to 3 - yet another scrap starting position without irrigation) so I had to take out their encroaching settlements. After taking out two she sued for peace. I got two other settlements in the deal. Needless to say she was pissed.

After 20 turns (it took that long to make spearmen in the newly aquired settlements) I resumed the war to finish the job. Next turn, she brings in the other two civ's on her side... all before anyone had gotten writing to establish embassies too.

I feel like I'll have to go back to playing at Warlord just to learn how to play this game all over again.

D.

	12-11-2002 22:05									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Zurai If the civ has no contact with any other civ, no one else will know about it (unless of course they respawn... which is why I always turn respawning off). I make it a point to annihilate my nearest AI opponent before they can make contact with anyone else, and I'll frequently take an active role in making sure they don't make contact.

Actually their attitude could indirectly be affected by your war with a Civ they don't know. If you considerably strengthen yourself in the war, then their attitude toward you will be affected.

	13-11-2002 00:51									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The point is: they get cautious of you? Angry?

I often asked myself why all Civ hate me. Really, ever bigger nation hates me. Okay, I play at deity (without AI-Unit-Boni) for the ai-diplomatic and tactic bonus.

Why they hate me? There are reasons perhaps. I wiped out many Civs and I always have many many slaves. I like my giant modern democracies with hundreds of slaves. Hehe.

Perhaps they hate me for that? How can I find out? Or am I hated because I play deity and they are supposed to do to make the game harder?

	13-11-2002 01:46									#22
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Really what difference does it make, why? You just have to deal with what is. There is a long list of the things that will not make you popular with the AI.

	13-11-2002 02:38									#23
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Well, I don;t agree.

In fact, I suggest that the best players manage AI civ's attitudes quite nicely.

vxma1, I have a challenge for you: I know you're getting a little burned out... try a game where your objective is to keep the AI civs' as positive as possible. Even the ones that you war with, try to get them back to polite (or better!) ASAP.

	13-11-2002 03:10									#24
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I never said you could not "manage" those attitudes to some degree, only that I do not bother with it. I will say I do not recall looking at saves with the AI not having some form of ill will towards the human after say middle ages. Why would I want them to be happy with me anyway? Remember I do not want to trade with or make RoP o MPP, I want to conquer them. They will make deals when it suits them and so will I. I dislike diplomacy and rarely even contact the AI. I do the std things like not breaking deals, not asking for more on deals and the like. IOW I do not go out of my way to irk them. I understand that it cost me a bit, but it is not like they can actually beat you. It only means how and when you win. The most boring game I ever played was when I decided to just sit back and let the clock run out on the game. The most fun is when I get into some jams.

	13-11-2002 04:14									#25
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Best way to test the question to this topic would be to save and try to sign RoP or MPP with the nation and kill em off. If you try to do same treaty with other nation and treaty is not favorable, their response is "you kidding me your tales of treachery w/ XXX is known far and wide" or somehting like that. If they say that. you KNOW they know

	13-11-2002 04:42									#26
	Put an end to popups!

I should have pointed out that the attitudes are easier to maint when not on a pangea type world. In my current game I have two civ polite late into 1st milenia AD and that is due to them being on another land mass. In this case I can stay on good terms fairly easy by making a lux trade and never changing the terms, if they see I am much stronger and will not want to attack me. I did that in my last game as I did not have time to get around to them, before I won. This wil not happen this time as I disabled all but conquest and Dominate, so we will have a war at some point.