11-11-2002 02:26									#1
	This pack's AI's fighting ability sucks Remove this text

I'm sorry, but the AI in this pack still plays like a *****

I'm poised to crush France (muah hahah) after bloodbathing 2 other civs to extinction, when France 'sneak attacks' with one puny marine.

And the AI's attack? Pillage. Whoa.... look out, after 5,000 years the AI might actually start to put a dent in my income.

Gee, real tough for me to handle that when I'm sitting off France's coast with 3 mixed navy fleets carrying 36 stealth bombers and 2 dozen tanks (at least).

Granted, some of the pathetic French counterattack was more substantial (still pretty easily repulsed though), but I was also watching the AI civs war with one another - almost all they did was pillage, pillage, pillage. About the only thing I see in this game as far as combat now is PILLAGING - BORING!


All this pillaging in Apolyton's CTP pack sucks and makes this game even duller.

Sorry - the civs ARE smarter and the diplomacy is waay improved - but all they do is PILLAGE.

So, how do I prevent the AI from using pillage as an attack?

	11-11-2002 02:53									#2
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I agree with you. I used to have the same problem. Fortunately, there is a way to change this. Open up the strategies file in
C:\Program Files\Activision\Call To Power 2\ctp2_data\default\aidata

and scroll through the file looking for the numbers that affect the agressiveness of the AI. What you are looking for are the attack numbers and the seige numbers. When you find these, increase them to a much higher number.

For isntance, the number I have for the Default strategy are:

GoalElement { Goal GOAL_DEFEND Priority 557000 MaxEval 2 MaxExec 1 PerCity }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_SEIGE Priority 900000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 25 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_ATTACK Priority 720000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 25 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_HARASS Priority 490000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 25 }


In the original file that came with the game, the values were:

GoalElement { Goal GOAL_DEFEND Priority 557000 MaxEval 2 MaxExec 1 PerCity }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_SEIGE Priority 405000 MaxEval 20 MaxExec 4 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_ATTACK Priority 405000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 25 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_HARASS Priority 355000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 25 }


Now, the AI units/armies head straight to my cities. It's really tough game play, but it's much more interesting. Now there is the possibility that I might lose a game.

	11-11-2002 03:40									#3
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What difficulty level were you playing on?

	11-11-2002 03:53									#4
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Yeah i noticed that too, when the AI has you right where they want you with 4 full stacks around your cities, they start taking out your farms, oh no! But now you can expect to lose a few cities now and then.

	11-11-2002 04:26									#5
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Thanks ahenobarb I'll try your strat changes

	11-11-2002 04:28									#6
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BurntHostage,

What mod are you playing?

	11-11-2002 04:35									#7
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I'm playing the Apolyton mod

I can't be that good, can I?

It was the next-to-hardest level, but I've spent months playing this and other Civ games before (literally) so maybe I need to play the toughest level...

Or maybe I just need to handicap myself more while playing:

	11-11-2002 04:50									#8
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Maybe, but probably not.

It's like Ahenobarb said. I always thought that Hex and Dale had prioritized the Pillage goal a bit too much but all the feedback was positive so I figured I was a minority of one.

The crucial thing is that the goals you want it to do ATTACK, SEIGE, and HARASS should be higher than the PILLAGE goal

	11-11-2002 06:53									#9
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i think this should maybe be changed in the next Cradle version (if there is a next)

P.S. Is this the same in MedMod2 ???

	11-11-2002 11:04									#10
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Thanks for the feedback. No one has said anything on the pillaging before now, except for a comment or two on "the AI could've taken my city, but pillaged instead". No one's said it was a problem before. The SAP2 goals are taken straight from Cradle. So that's why they both have the same thing.

	11-11-2002 20:00									#11
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Noted...

Hear are the settings for the STRATEGY_DEFAULT in Cradle. The ATTACK and SEIGE numbers are higher than the pillage numbers for the STRATEGY_ATTACK and STRATEGY_SEIGE setings though, and there are a variety of settings for the various other STRATEGY_(SCIENTIST, ECONOMIC and so forth...).

GoalElement { Goal GOAL_SEIGE Priority 620000 MaxEval 20 MaxExec 15 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_ATTACK Priority 720000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 25 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_PILLAGE Priority 753000 MaxEval 10 MaxExec 5 }

I'm not sure exactly when the AI will switch to a different STRATEGY though...how long will it stay in ATTACK or SEIGE???

As stated, increasing the priority numbers to 900000 for ATTACK and SEIGE (and decreasing PILLAGE to 500000) for all of the STRATEGYs should help in that regard.

One of the reasons why I did not do that in Cradle was because on the highest levels of Cradle, the AI is able to maintain a good science lead and thus a sizable unit ability advantage, and it has the use of the Frenzy code, which prompts it to move its forces into human lands. Frenzy also is also more hair trigger in regards to the hate levels - it prompts the AI to more quickly declare war on the human player.

Once the AI is in your lands and it has declared war on you it has three main choices - Pillage/Seige/Attack. I have tried to balance out the three, trying to keep in mind that advantage that the AI does have.

If the AI pressed its advantage to its fullest ability, it could roll through a player very easily. My last game was a good example of this - the AI was fielding Legions/Belfrois on turn 200 while I had just gotten to Hoplites. And the Incas were methodically taking my cities too, even with the settings as they are. (I'm not ashamed to admit that I did end up ditching that game because I was too far back...my military had also been decimated trying to stop them)

Players have also reported back that there has been a good mix of city losses in Cradle, so I haven't tinkered with the numbers too much lately.

I would like to suggest for a player to make the changes above and to report back on what they observed, giving higher priority to ATTACK and SEIGE on all of the STRATEGY_ entries.

	11-11-2002 22:20									#12
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quote: If the AI pressed its advantage to its fullest ability, it could roll through a player very easily. My last game was a good example of this - the AI was fielding Legions/Belfrois on turn 200 while I had just gotten to Hoplites.

Would it not be better to reduce the AI's science advantage and get it to press itself to it's fullest ability fight wise?

I'd rather see an AI with only a slightly higher tech lead fight as well as it can then a more reserved AI with a huge tech lead.

	12-11-2002 08:26									#13
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Pillaging is overrated 'cause in this version the ai's build up so much infrastructure they wind up rebuilding pillaged tiles instantly only to get pillaged again in a couple turns (and over and over)

Here's what I changed the settings to:

GoalElement { Goal GOAL_DEFEND Priority 557000 MaxEval 2 MaxExec 1 PerCity }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_SEIGE Priority 900000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 25 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_ATTACK Priority 750000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 25 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_PILLAGE Priority 103000 MaxEval 10 MaxExec 5 }

Swear to you guys, before when I watched the cpus fight each other it was all pillage now they're attacking cities/units like crazy.

	12-11-2002 08:37									#14
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Don't get me wrong - this mod is waaaaay better use of the ai than the original game!

You actually made it interesting to play again

	12-11-2002 17:55									#15
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This thread is one of the most interesting one I have ever read. I decided to change the values of my Apolyton Pack strategies accordingly, I thus opened the text file but when I scrolled the whole text I saw GOALS were distributed all along the text.

Do I have to change all the values each time ATTACK, PILLAGE, DEFEND and SIEGE are concerned (I have noted some goals are set to 0) ?

If not, what are the lines that need to be changed ?

BurntHostage : (to be pronounced rolling the "r") the dreadful revenge of the undomitable french people will be your loss...

	12-11-2002 18:53									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin This thread is one of the most interesting one I have ever read. I decided to change the values of my Apolyton Pack strategies accordingly, I thus opened the text file but when I scrolled the whole text I saw GOALS were distributed all along the text. Do I have to change all the values each time ATTACK, PILLAGE, DEFEND and SIEGE are concerned (I have noted some goals are set to 0) ? If not, what are the lines that need to be changed ? BurntHostage : (to be pronounced rolling the "r") the dreadful revenge of the undomitable french people will be your loss...

I changed the values for all of the strategies. However, the first time I did this, I changed all the strategies except default because I thought that only the Barbarians would use the default value. I didn't notice much change in the AI's behavior, but when I changed the default values there was a real difference.

I'm not certain when the other strategies are accessed, but I would change them anyway (no fear -- no fear ) just to make sure the AI keeps the pressure on.

	12-11-2002 21:16									#17
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Barbarians have their own set of strategies. Change them all except the STRATEGY_BARBARIAN or you will be losing A LOT of early cities to them.

I'm guessing that the AI mainly uses the STRATEGY_DEFAULT settings for the normal AI civs, based on what is being reported...

	13-11-2002 02:59									#18
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Thanks for your help Ahenobarb and Hexagonian.

I don't know exactly what I will do when I triffle with the APOL_Startegies.txt but I'am about to do it anyway.

	13-11-2002 05:45									#19
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quote: I didn't notice much change in the AI's behavior, but when I changed the default values there was a real difference.

Actually this shouldn't be happening. The AI's base strategic states are initialized according to personalities, e.g. Stalin has the Militarist attribute and gets initialized via STRATEGY_MILITARIST_DEFAULT. Also, if they're at war they should be using one of the war strategies.

	13-11-2002 05:48									#20
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will this be in the next mod updates?

	13-11-2002 06:03									#21
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Here are adjusted CRADLE Strategies and a reduced AI bonus for the AI, as per Turambar's request. This will change Cradle to 1.34b and requires 1.34a to be installed beforehand. If this comes back with favorable reports, I will make it standard.

Thanks for the feedback on this - keep it coming...

Attachment: 134b1.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

Last edited by hexagonian on 10-12-2002 at 10:16

	13-11-2002 06:11									#22
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sure...!
call it the BurntMod!

	13-11-2002 06:54									#23
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quote: Originally posted by hexagonian Here are adjusted CRADLE Strategies...

Thanks Hexagonian, I will use your "Strategies" adjustments in my future SAP2 game I hope to start before the end of this week. If anybody here is interested I will post a short after action report (unfortunately I don't have Vel's verve).

	13-11-2002 19:19									#24
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You will have to manually change the settings in the SAP strategies. If you simply rename my file, the game will crash because there are different governments in Cradle.

As for the changes in Cradle, I made the SEIGE and ATTACK priorities at 800000 in the default STRATEGY and dropped Pillage down to 500000, plus I also went into all of the various STRATEGY_xxx and tweaked the numbers too. As pointed out earlier in the thread, the main thing is to have a clear differentiation between the numbers, so I think that the numbers are sufficiently weighted toward ATTACK and SEIGE. If not, then we bump them up more and drop pillage down further...

Peter, I always assumed the same, which raises the question - Why are those strategies in the file then????

BTW, I'm always assumed that HARRASS refers to the actions taken against unconventionals/diplomats/settlers by military units, but what is HARRASS_CITY???

	13-11-2002 22:01									#25
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dp

	13-11-2002 22:02									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Peter Triggs Actually this shouldn't be happening. The AI's base strategic states are initialized according to personalities, e.g. Stalin has the Militarist attribute and gets initialized via STRATEGY_MILITARIST_DEFAULT. Also, if they're at war they should be using one of the war strategies.

I would not change your thinking about how the strategies are used just yet. When I made the changes originally (several months ago), I had only one neighbor (one left, that this) on my border. He had a stack of units near my city pillaging its heart out. It didn't attack the city until I changed the values for the default strategy.

So, it was only an experiment with one civ and without the particulars of the situation it's hard to go back and assess what strategy it was using at the time (Default it would seem).

Perhaps it something someone would want to experiment with and report back?

Following up on Hex's comment, how is HARASS_CITY different from PILLAGE? Is HARASSment just non-pillaging interference with the city like attacks by Specials. Lawyer injunctions against one of your cities is real Harassment!

	14-11-2002 01:29									#27
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Re: 'Harass'

Here's what Azmel2 told WesW about this:

quote: 1)What is the difference between the Attack and Harass goals? Also between Harass City and Siege? They seem like the same thing to me. Richard: Notice that the Attack and Siege goes have different force matching than the harass goals. Harass goals have lower priority and are used to throw units at an enemy to keep them on their toes until a large enough force to attack or seige has been created.

The Harass goals have the same targets but use the Harass force matching conditions which are lower than the Offensive force matching used by the Seige and Attack goals. This means that the AI should be attacking those targets (cities or armies) with weaker forces, i.e. even suicidally. I think the idea was to weaken the defenders (maybe kill a few of them or just lower their health) so that they could be finished off with another attack on the next turn. But I've very rarely seen this happen and haven't had much success with tweaking the data.

IMO, these goals could have been better named. In my mod I've changed them to

code:

ATTACK_CITY_OFF = SEIGE
ATTACK_CITY_HAR = HARASS_CITY

ATTACK_UNIT_OFF = ATTACK
ATTACK_UNIT_HAR = HARASS

	14-11-2002 02:02									#28
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I used some parts of Wes' strategies.txt and he gave for all the different strategies differnt PW settings. The result was sooner or later all the AIs used the PW tax of the STRATEGY_SIEGE. I only saw one AI that used the PW tax of STRATEGY_ATTACK.

By the way Peter you should submit your *.rtf file to the directory.

-Martin

	14-11-2002 03:51									#29
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quote: By the way Peter you should submit your *.rtf file to the directory

All 3 (or more, what do I know?) of them in fact.

	14-11-2002 05:01									#30
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3? There's the one above and the Diplomacy one, both of which I intend to clean up and submit when I get a Round Tuit. But I can't think of a third one.