11-11-2002 06:53									#1
	Science slider Put an end to popups!

The Science Slider is currently at 0% again. It's beleaved (by some) that we can purchace our way up the technology ladder. Yes, we are behind un the technology race, but we are fast catching up. We have more Libraries than before. We have reduced corruption from both new courthouses and the new FP. We have a large population base that can feed our research with trade. We have Banks and Universities that will be going up soon. We'll also have Wall Street that will shortly become available, too.

Theory of Gravity would cost about 1245 Lytons
Magnetism would cost about 1250 Lytons.
The opportunity to get Magnetism and trade it to Greece has expired (and reducing the overall cost), they are also now in the Industrial Age, with Rome, Germany & England (the big 4). So the question to ask is, DO WE REALLY WANT THE OTHER CIVS TO HAVE THAT MUCH OF OUR HARD EARNED CASH!!! And that's just to get out of the Middle Ages.

SO, where do we want to set the research at:
Researching: Theory of Gravity. 1171 Lytons in Treasury
0% (with 1 sci spec): 38 turns; +977 LPT
10%: 22 Turns; +874 LPT
20%: 11 turns; +772 LPT
30%: 8 turns; +660LPT
40%: 6 turns; +555LPT
50%: 5 turns; +435LPT
60%: 4 turns; +347LPT

4 TURNS, can you beleave that and still be making money.

I have only a few major rushes that I'll need money for, the rest would be for throughput rushes. We've gotten a large group of our Mulitiary upgraded, which can continue at a steady pace of 1 to 2 units per turn. So, really, why de we want the AI to have our money. So were behind them, WE WILL CATCH UP! Is this game "won", Not Yet. Not if we have to pay for our stuff, they should be paying us.

And Also, the GA will be over shortly (1000AD I beleave), so we need to get off of the stick and get moving with our research. Another thing, as you get closer to completing an item, yoiu CAN tweek the slider to make more money in the long run!.

So, what will it be, owned by the AI, or telling the AI to shove off and we'll get our orn techs.

E_T

	11-11-2002 08:28									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

What I want to know, is why the slider was changed. I know that it was changed after purchasing Free Artistry, but for what purpose, I know not. Was there not a poll on this just a few turns ago, where the majority of people voted on the slider set at 40%??? Unless this is a very temporary situation, the government needs to start getting their act together before the AI attacks our cavalry with modern tanks!!!

	11-11-2002 08:37									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Panzer,
That was a decision made in the chat. As Foreign Ministry Rep, and considering we would have had Free Artistry in three turns, I was originally in favor of waiting until we researched Free Artistry, since I didn't see the point of having it three turns earlier when we would be paying 200 gold for it. The other people there correctly pointed out that we could buy it and then make twice as much money back in less time by temporarially eliminating Science spending. I said that this would clearly be acceptable to me if people felt that changing the Science Slider was legal, and then had to leave. I have no opinion on the issue of the Science Slider being changed back -- I considered the original change a profitable tradeoff that (as Foreign Ministry Rep) I had no problem with, but in general I try to avoid Science Discussions, since I have little skill in the area .

-- adaMada

	11-11-2002 09:38									#4
	Got spare money?

We had changed it, to help recoop the money that we had used to purchase Free Artistry. We had first, also looked at getting Magnetism for the cheapest we could get and then trading it with Greece (who didn't have it) for Theory of Gravity, thereby trying to be within the limits that FAM Togas had set for tech trades. But Unfortunately, the overall price would have still been too high.
The decision was then made for FA.

During the next turn, I tried to get the slider changed back to 40%, but was voted down, if it had been, we'd most likely be able to set the slider to 50% now and have the tech in 4 turns, with a larger income.

E_T

	11-11-2002 10:26									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The decision to set the slider to 0% was made so that we could make ~300 gold to offset the 223 Gold cost of buying FA. Had we kept the science slider at 40%, we would not have had the funds to complete the approved rushes, upgrades, and embassies slated for the remainder of the chat. Had we failed to purchase FA, it would have taken us another 3 turns to research it and we would have lost money (net) compared to the plan we chose.

The slider was KEPT at 0% for one additional turn because:

1. The FP was not yet complete. Now that that FP is complete, science is A LOT more effective on our own.

2. The extra money made from the additional turn buffered our monetary reserve and it could be used to purchase Theory of Graviy or Magnetism in just such a deal as described by adaMada above.

3. The balance of opinion in the chat was clearly in favor of reducing the science slider to 0% for one additional turn until the construction of the FP.

Personally, and I'm the one who made the final call, I decided that the debate over where to place the science slider could be more finally decided once the FP was built and we had a clearer picture of how effective our own research would be with the reduced corruption.

------------------

Now...

Due to the construction of the FP, we can now (if E_T's calculation is correct) place the science slider at 60% and make it to Theory of Gravity or Magnetism in 4 turns AND make over 300 LPT in income.

I do not intend to do another chat until the issue of where to stick the science slider has been finalized and a tech has been chosen for research.

	11-11-2002 10:36									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Please post a poll, suggested 5 day, on this issue. This way, it will be official.

Please, also put a reminder, that as we progress towards the end of the research, that we can possibly tweek the % and gain more income, while keeping the TOC for the tech the same.

E_T

	11-11-2002 10:51									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by E_T Please post a poll, suggested 5 day, on this issue. This way, it will be official. Please, also put a reminder, that as we progress towards the end of the research, that we can possibly tweek the % and gain more income, while keeping the TOC for the tech the same. E_T

Doing the poll now, but it will be 3 days.

	11-11-2002 12:44									#8
	Put an end to popups!

We are at least three techs behind (ToG, Mag and Nat.). To remedy this, I suggest that we leave the science slider at 0% while using the extra income to rush additional libraries and universities and buy our way through the tech tree.
Eventually we'll be even with the major players in techs and then we'll be able to start researching on our own. However, as long as we're so far behind in tech that it is futile to research on our own because it is cheaper to just buy the tech.

We should combine this course of action with preparations for a war against Greece and Germany, in any order we choose. This will weaken our opponents and allow us to bypass them in research eventually.

	11-11-2002 12:50									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The readyness for war is still mostlikely 20 turns away. If we go after one of the Big 4, we'll need to prepare to have 1-2 others join in against us.

E_T

	11-11-2002 14:43									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I suggest putting the sider on 60%, but buy the other tech from a non threatening Civ, like Rome. As it seems, buying each tech costs roughly half than buying, BUT that money we pay is used to:
1) upgrade knights to Cavalry
2) Rush units
3) buy allies in case we/they attack

So, if we would buy Techs, do so only from Rome, or Greece- for this time- these are tow civs we won't attack for now- Since Greece is too strong for my taste, and England is much more tempting.

The other tech should be researched- if our CP says he has the funds he needs for rushes, and Aggie's upgrades seem to be going well, some research couldn't hurt that much.

	11-11-2002 15:12									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

We're doing well in the upgrade department. WE still have:
3 Spearmen
12 Pilkemen to upgrade
We currently have 23 Muskets with more being built

9 WC's and 2 Knights (elites that the SMC might be saving for a possible future GL). We have 17 Cavalry with more being built

We also have 2 Galleys and 1 Warrior that can be upgraded.

That's all for the current upgrade status. If we space them out to atleast 1 per turn, we will be doing good.

I only have one more Temple and 6 Courthouses that I'll be looking at rushing, but I'm flexible on the timing and they're in the new cities and still need to get to the point that I'll even consider rushing them. I like to use that money for throughput rushes, but I can go with that flow two and the Items will still get built, just not a quick as I'd like.

E_T

	11-11-2002 17:19									#12
	Tired of ads?

"0% (with 1 sci spec): 38 turns; +977 LPT"
"60%: 4 turns; +347LPT"

I see the argument that we're loosing out on about 1270L ((630lpt*4)-1250L) if we research the two techs. OTOH I do worry about giving the AI that much money, but we can't be behind in the industrial age, so I say buy the tech (preferably form two different Civs, to avoid giving one too much $$$). After that (+any industrial tech we can buy at a good rate) switch to 60%/4turns, implement the industrial science plan and burn the AI.

Industrial Science Plan (ISP):
Steam
Industrialization
(begin US to build up shields)
--> scientific method
Switch to (ToE)
Research RP while building ToE (Sanitation if there is time)
Get AT + electronics w/ToE
Build HD
(after building HD trade the now useless AT and Electronics to the AI for other line techs we don’t have, or LARGE cash sums (don’t sell um’ cheap))

On the other hand do we really need to buy our technology from that AI scum? Perhaps we should have some pride in our Apolytonian science program, our scientists are as good as any English or German scientists!

[edited to correct "-->"]

	11-11-2002 20:45									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

PEOPLE - look at the numbers!
It would cost us roughly 2,500 lytons to research Theory of Gravity on our own, or we could buy it from Greece for about 1,200 lytons. We can then take the remaining 1,300 lytons and invest them in libraries and universities!!
Why do you insist on wasting so much money?? Just because a few people panicked after the last turnchat it doesn't mean we have to throw money away.

	11-11-2002 22:00									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Civ3 is a War game. Sometimes it is fought on the battle field and sometimes it is fought by other means. But make no mistake about this, it will be fought. We have the landmass, the population, and better tactics on our side. We are not yet ready primarily because of the ever shrinking jungle we started in continues to consume much of our efforts. The winning strategy is to keep more or less even even tech wise by whatever methods are available to us until such time as we can muster overwhelming research. The events of the last three turn chats should convince anyone willing to actually look at what happened to realize that we are not YET ready to go high research. Please be patient. Give Aggie and Togas another 20 turns or so and we WILL be unstopable.

I know that I come across as a warmonger, but I really am rather mild mannered. I just want to win the game.

roadcage

	12-11-2002 01:47									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Listen to shiber and roadcage. The arguement was as I mentioned in the chat. Let me do the math.
Cost for TOG =1220
Cost for TOG by reducing slider for 4 turns to get TOG =
{970(current income at 0%)-347(income at 60%)}*4
= 2492.
2492>>>>>1220 so we waste 1272 gold if we move slider.
So my vote will be and will continue to be(until we are competitive on research) a 0% science rate.
Aggie

	12-11-2002 02:15									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I now feel much better.

I quote from our Constitution, Article 1 section 1 subsection g

quote: (g) The President has control over the economy/science/luxury slider and may make changes when he feels they are appropriate.

Thank you Aggie, you have always had my vote, but it is more important now.

roadcage

	12-11-2002 03:35									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Finally, the zero% party is right, and the 60% party is not wrong. In fact, the worst case is as follows :

- with the cash saved, we rush units
- with the cash received, the AI rush units

If the amounts are of the same magnitude on both side, no harm; if the amount saved is smaller than the amount paid to the AI, it is a loosing move.

	12-11-2002 05:41									#18
	Increase Your PM Length

One problem Davout is this, even including the 20% gain the AI gets. If we prodice slighly less units than them we win becuase 1 unit in our hands is like 3 in theirs.
Aggie

	12-11-2002 06:02									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I don't have a strong opinion on this, but the opinion I do have is to go with the 0%, buy, and rush universities like mad strategy.

	12-11-2002 06:26									#20
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Aggie One problem Davout is this, even including the 20% gain the AI gets. If we prodice slighly less units than them we win becuase 1 unit in our hands is like 3 in theirs. Aggie

Yes Aggie, but this is the only reason why we should choose zero; there is no saving, we just increase our assets at the same pace than the AI, but they are more efficiently used by the humans.

Anyway, the figures have to be checked after the GA.

	12-11-2002 09:18									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: I don't have a strong opinion on this, but the opinion I do have is to go with the 0%, buy, and rush universities like mad strategy.

May the great banana be praised. I think he's got it. Well almost, a mixture of banks and universities!

	12-11-2002 23:30									#22
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'm calculating that it would cost at least 1890 Gold to research Theory of Gravity.
(977 - 347) * 3 + 1.

Handing over 1245 Gold to the AI is cheaper.

So, we should buy.

And I think in future games, we should stay at 0% until the Forbidden Palace is built even if we enter the GA first.

(Which is what I just did in my own latest game on Emperor level that started this long weekend. [After finishing the last one I was in.])

If we are going for a peaceful victory I think we'll need to catch up to the AI by the time the Golden Age ends.

Perhaps the court house & market place rushings will be finished soon.

I'm adjusting my standpoint back towards military expansion to knock off some more AIs heads to bring their reserach down to our level.

	13-11-2002 00:27									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I'm calculating that it would cost at least 1890 Gold to research Theory of Gravity. (977 - 347) * 3 + 1. Handing over 1245 Gold to the AI is cheaper. So, we should buy. And I think in future games, we should stay at 0% until the Forbidden Palace is built even if we enter the GA first. (Which is what I just did in my own latest game on Emperor level that started this long weekend. [After finishing the last one I was in.]) If we are going for a peaceful victory I think we'll need to catch up to the AI by the time the Golden Age ends. Perhaps the court house & market place rushings will be finished soon. I'm adjusting my standpoint back towards military expansion to knock off some more AIs heads to bring their reserach down to our level.

GA ends in 6 to 7 turns, but we will be going into Democracy right afterwards.

We have courthouses in most of the cities that currently need them. The only ones that will need a Courthouse Rush are in the new Cities (6 total) and they still have a bit of build to get the the point that I'll even ask for funds to Rush them (i.e. 10% completed). We also have more marketplaces that will soon be available and all of the newly FP Centric cities will have rapid builds now and will soon be at par with the rest of the nation.

I still think, at least to get into Industrial, that we should Research one and but the other with the Luxes that will come up in 4 turns with Germany. That will atleast get us into Industrial and we can reevaluate this after the GA is over.

E_T

	13-11-2002 03:25									#24
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Buy, Buy Buy!!!!! We need to save the money. if we have a chioce of whom to buy from, we should pick the most backward civ that has the advance.

	13-11-2002 16:02									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In an extremely interesting thread, Theseus said :

2) Research – For whatever reason, 0% research as a concept just drives me crazy. Yeah, I know, you sorta can’t go wrong buying techs when they are so much cheaper, but does that give you control? No. If you haven’t done so, getting a branch lead is literally the most powerful thing you can do… better than money, better than luxuries, better than a strong military, better than infrastructure. I often refer to the ‘industrial corridor’… gaining a branch tech lead here, where the path is constrained, is a cycle-breaking, game-over strategic advantage. Research has changed somewhat with PTW, but the principle still applies.

Worth to think a bit about it.

	13-11-2002 20:36									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

We can't get a branch leaf when state of the art is industrial and we are still in middle ages.

We have to get out of the middle ages first. The longer we take to do so, the more techs we have to buy to get to a point where a branch lead is possible.

	13-11-2002 21:38									#27
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Our only hope of getting a branch lead EVER, is to forcibly downsize Germany and at least one other AI engine. We simply must stop tying the hands of our strategic war planning advantage by brokering 20 turn deals with Otto and his cronies.

	13-11-2002 22:41									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Perhaps we can build a "Take Me" city whose sole purpose is to tempt the Germans into attacking us. Then it won't matter that our GPT deal with Germany got canceled early. (And we save a lot of money on techs.)

	14-11-2002 04:46									#29
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

0% sounds fine to me to get out of the Middle Ages, then we should techwhore Medicine(we need it to get to Scientific Method). It's been my experience that the AI waits at least until it gets to Industrialization, and usually longer, before it researches Medicine. It's also best to buy Nationalism etc, after we get Medicine, and maximize our Science rate to get there fast.