11-11-2002 07:13									#1
	Fighting a Defensive War - thoughts and opinions Remove this text

Here's the deal.

I'm Morgan, and I'm going along pretty good. I'm running Demo - Green (which surprisingly gives me more money than FM does!) - Wealth. I know I have lots of People Who Don't Like My Choices - Santiago, Zak, Yang, Miriam. My situation is that, playing a builder, I dont really feel like going to war.

Basically, I know eventually I'm gonna get into a war, and I want to fight defensively (meaning let them come to me, take over what I can through probes, etc)

Here's my setup -

1) Two AAA/ECM/Best Armor At Time
2) Sensors everywhere
3) Child's Cresh
4) P. Defence (through secret project)
5) Tachyon Field (on outside bases)
6) 2 Probe Teams per base
7) As many missle-preventing pods as humanly possible (when I get them of course) to avoid PB attacks.

Thoughts, opinions on the layout? I've never played a Builder.

Another thought I've just had while typing this out - do factions get a little bit more angry when you use anti-their-choice social settings even if you dont contact them? In other words, does Zak get a little bit angry each turn if you run Wealth?

	11-11-2002 08:27									#2
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Ehrm against the AI you only need to do 2 things:
If you are on an island, forget abou the AI. It doesn't exist. If worse comes to worse make a few interceptors. Maybe they will drop 2 units every 20 years, keep a few attack rovers stationed to kill units as they land.

If you are on the same landmass as the AI, find a choke point and hold it. In the early game have a best armor unit in a forest with a sensor array, and clear the terrain in front of that square so you can use rovers to kill anything that goes there (+25% rolling in open bonus) In the late game its the same, except get a chopper to mow down AI units as they approach you.

I played the ultimate builder challenge, where you are cha dawn on a tiny island playing against 6 tweaked AI factions that are pacted together. In other words all 6 factions were attacking me. It was a peace of cake defending until I managed to acquire/steal airpower, and then I got too bored to finish playing (chop and drop gets tedious)

	11-11-2002 23:19									#3
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Hendrick is right-- killing the AI is usually pretty easy and since you want to play "builder", I'm guessing you do not want advice like " build 3 dozen choppers and go kill the AI"

your setup will work marvelously against anything I have ever seen the AI manage and in fact is a bit of a defensive overkill

But even playing the AI you should develop good habits and should try to avoid letting them too close to your empire . . you describe an era where PB's exist so you are tech advanced and I am guessing your goal is to transcend. Assuming enough orbital defense pods to handle PBs and an aerocomplex in EVERY base . . .

-- I would propose more "active defense" since your setup protects your bases but If I had to attack it,

a) I would suicide choppers on all your crawlers and go after your improvements AND/OR
b) mass attack at a point of my choosing--- I am talking multiple artillery hits ( which IIRC, doesn't work great against units inside tachyons but will cause some damage -- I should test this) followed by a proberape for tech or to get your improvements down and take the base-- the bottom line is that with relative tech parity, no base is impregnable--the idea is not so much to take your base as it is to destroy it and its production


Thats why I would advise

1. Have foil crawlers with deep radar as cheap resource gathering scouts in "quieter/safer" areas for advance warning-- No ship should get into range to drop off troops and no plane/chopper should get in unannounced.

2. Have some cheap interceptors with radar for scout duty in the more active areas for a deeper perimeter. Locusts are even better for this as they stay on station but they are a bit expensive and no more survivable

3. You could attempt to have interceptor coverage of your crawlers but the reality is that all the attacker needs to do is self destruct some units to render this coverage moot ( but the AI never does this)

4. Have enough best weapon choppers to interdict anything that comes in-- or use probes for interdiction of any lone units--



Overall, my comment on your setup is that it seems like defensive overkill with little mention of defense in depth ( in geographic terms) or offensive units. When I go "builder" this does not mean I cannot have offensive capability --- Also, be more flexible-- have a few more AA drop units to rush to trouble spots and have a bit less in an interior base-- For example, many of my interior bases will have 0 probes since a drop probe gets no movement after the drop and complete sensor coverage means you kill whatever they might drop in

	12-11-2002 02:06									#4
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Against the PBs, a no-man's land defence can be useful as well :

Try to cancel the UN charter and destroy every base in range of PBs with chemical weapons. Its often cheaper and more effective than building other stuffs. Pbs are really useful toon but seeing you play Morgan, I guess you need trade...

Remember you can commit these atrocities if the sunflares problem occurs and suppress communications.

You can also destroy any base starting to prototype a PB with these same chemicals weapons, or with a probe. Or with another PB

the last option against PB is quite lame : make ground wall of defense. If you have enough units blocking the aerian way, or if you can deflect the shorter aerian trjectory with a few cheap units, the AI will have to PB your weakest units instead of you r cities. Its most of the time not a good tactic, but it can sometime be really useful.

About a total defense, make sure this evil foreigners dont waste your terraforming when they come close to your cities, so try to block the way with strong defenses and use their Zone of Control.
Remember you can raise/lower terrain to make strategic landbridges.
Secure your land. Buy the world.

	12-11-2002 02:30									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak the last option against PB is quite lame : make ground wall of defense. If you have enough units blocking the aerian way, or if you can deflect the shorter aerian trjectory with a few cheap units, the AI will have to PB your weakest units instead of you r cities. Its most of the time not a good tactic, but it can sometime be really useful.

Does this actually work against the AI? I thought AI PBs just went to the target without actually traversing the intervening squares. As I recall, this was at the root of the infintie range PB bug that Firaxis tried so many times to correct. (I think it STILL isn't corrected 100%)

If it works, and if you do it, remember to keep the wall outside of the blast range of any base!

	12-11-2002 02:39									#6
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Morgie loves probe teams. I tend to make scads of infantry based probe teams and have them litter the country side in areas where a choke point doens't serve you.

The best model though is to make yourself a chokepoint if possible by making/planting some fungal areas (especially good if you have xenodome and Nueral Amplifier SP's crank a few worms in the fungus have a few arty sitting by and then some elite infantry armored PTs.)

As AI factions draw near, a sensor shows them coming up. You move in and attack with the Arty from 2 squares distant (upgrade to SAM arty later on) to soften them up. Come into bear with some worms (free support in the fungus plus attack bonus of 50%) and then subvert/pick off singlies with armored probe teams. Works very well up to and including D:AP although at that point the increased mobility of air units make defense rather problematic as you can't bring your units to bear as easily without resorting to the above mentioned SAM choppers.

If for some reason you have D:AP for a significant period of time whilst the AI does not. A simple blocking Zone of control at a isthmus chokepoint by rotating 2 or more needljets (say cheap 4-1-10's) can stimy the onrush of rush factions like Miriam indefinitely until they come up with SAM noodles to take your blockers out.

However at the tech level you describe you've far outpaced the early midgame builder defense to which I allude. At the point of the game you are in it seems you would be best served taking the offensive to the other factions. Subvert what bases you can via foil probe teams. Force submissions by taking the offensive and taking their SE choices for a turn or two. (If you do it and switch back within the same turn it normally is considered cheating). As Morgie you want those submissives for trade energy.

Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe on 12-11-2002 at 02:47

	12-11-2002 02:47									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Mongoose Does this actually work against the AI? I thought AI PBs just went to the target without actually traversing the intervening squares. As I recall, this was at the root of the infintie range PB bug that Firaxis tried so many times to correct. (I think it STILL isn't corrected 100%) If it works, and if you do it, remember to keep the wall outside of the blast range of any base!

Well, I dont know precisely, but I think it works, since the AI never PBed me that way.

	12-11-2002 14:18									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Come into bear with some worms (free support in the fungus plus attack bonus of 50%)

Wait, what did you mean by "free support in the fungus"? Are worms in the fungal tiles free in maintenance?

	12-11-2002 14:43									#9
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All native life forms cost no support minerals when in fungus tiles.

Care must be taken when keeping worms in fungus tiles close to forest or IoDs in fungus tiles close to kelp. If the forest or kelp spreads, you may have to support the unit unexpectedly. If you're in the habit (as am I) of rushing builds to the point that the base's production just completes the item, the extra supported unit can throw your plans off.

	12-11-2002 17:05									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Kirov Wait, what did you mean by "free support in the fungus"? Are worms in the fungal tiles free in maintenance?

Yeppers as Mong indicates all natives are free of support costs whilst in fungus. Because Morgie is support hampered if you are threatened and need consider war to give yourself some breathing room (especially in the early going) nothing helps Morgie defend himself like going green.

1) It allows him the chance to capture Natives.
2) Natives captured should head straight for fungus to allow free support.
3) In fungus the natives can heal to full strength
4) In fungus when attacking natives get +50% bonus.
5) Obviously the fungus bogs down others on the attack

Heed Mongs warnings on fungus near forest or kelp. Anything that causes a min or two to slip away (even gifted units from a pactmate) can sometimes mean the difference between a successful rush buy and wasted mins.

	15-11-2002 22:34									#11
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Plenty of solid advice. I'd add using air cover to pick off invading forces and to set up ZoC, stalling the invasion.