11-11-2002 10:41									#1
	Anyone else think that Monotheism comes too late? Get a bigger avatar today!

Hi Guys,

Haven't had a chance to play Civ3 lately, due to a Trashed computer . I found myself thinking, though, that Monotheism shouldn't make it's first appearance in the Middle ages. Potestantism-yes, Islam-yes, but both Christianity and Judaism fall squarely into what I would call the Ancient Age!! (I think Judaism was around in 2000 or 1500 BC?!)
So, when I get my computer back, I was thinking that, the first thing I'll do is make Monotheism an Ancient Tech-but not a pre-requisite, probably leave the cost about the same, and have it's prerequisites as either "Code of Laws" and "Polytheism", "Philosophy" and "Code of Laws", "Polytheism" and "Philosophy", or even all three together!!!
Monotheism will still lead to Theology, but Theology should remain a Middle Ages Tech. I also plan to introduce the "Tech"-Protestantism-leads on from Theology, and allows you to build "The Reformation" (Small Wonder, requires 5x cathedrals to build, and increases the happiness granted by churches-it also reduces corruption ).

Anyway, that's just a thought. If anyone want to add ideas, or criticism, I'd be glad for the feedback!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	11-11-2002 12:48									#2
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Ive been thinking lately of modding my own game to, as ive never actually tryed it before.

	11-11-2002 17:10									#3
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Historically, yes. Monotheism does occur too late in the tech tree. However, would cathedrals still coincide with monotheism, or should there be a new tech for them between Monotheism and Theology? IIRC, there were no 'cathedrals' as we know them in the ancient era, with the first ones having been built in the Dark Age (which would be the early middle ages).

Perhaps when I go to mod the game again, I'll make Monotheism an ancient era tech, requiring Philosophy and Polytheism. I'll then add something along the lines of Theocracy to the early middle ages tech tree where Monotheism once was. Cathedrals will require Theocracy instead of Monotheism.

With Theocracy could be another wonder: The Inquisition. However, I don't know what it could possibly do at this time.

Unfortunately, this would just add another empty tech to the tree (philosophy and polytheism are already empty techs). I'd then need to come up with some ideas as to what Monotheism could do in the ancient era. Perhaps something along the lines of 'The True Cross' or 'The Old Testament' to double effect of temples permanently (since the Oracle hardly carries out its purpose before Theology cancels it out).

	11-11-2002 17:42									#4
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The Reformation generally led to a century of civil war, not happiness, with the only countries not left in ruins and starving bieng those who stayed Catholic (England didn't starve, but Cromwell was one blood thirsty b*asta$d). Also, for all none European civs, what is the Reformation? The Civ series has generally avoided bieng religion specific, even Bach' Cahthedral refers to the music, not religious conotation.

	11-11-2002 20:11									#5
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there should be jihad function, where after the discovery of a certain religion you can go on a bomus war

	12-11-2002 03:44									#6
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OK, first up I'd like to thank you guys for replying so quick, you've all given me a lot to think about!
You make some good points, Patroklos, that The Reformation did cause some major social upheavals, at least initially! I should point out, though, that Englands major religious difficulties preceded Cromwell by more than 100 years. It was the religious wars created by Henry the VIII and his 3 children which caused the biggest eruptions!! Under Elizabeth, though, things were mostly quiet. Cromwell caused major difficulties for the Catholics in Ireland-not so much as a result of protestantism, but more because of the fact he was a Puritan and an Iconoclast!!
Back to my point, though, Protestantism and The Reformation was the result of discontent at the growing level of corruption within the Catholic Church, and a growing sense of alienation within the general population. The point of Reformation, therefore, is about trying to end the monolithic nature of the "Mother Church" by reigning in corruption and de-mystifying the rites of the service! For instance, in England, Reformation meant bringing the priest into direct contact with their flock, and translating the mass, and the bible, into English! I could see how this would produce happiness amongst the masses!
Also, Reformation could just as easily occur within any of the Monotheistic faiths, not just Christianity!!
Anyway, my feeling is that Reformation should produce civ-wide hapiness, and reduce corruption, but should cancel the effect of the Sistine Chapel, it should also have a minor negative impact on culture (to represent Iconoclasm!). Protestanism should, however, allow you to build one of the Great Protestant Churches, as a great wonder. Also, Protestantism should require Printing Press and theology, and allow you to also build Chapels (small churches which don't provide culture, but do provide happiness).
As for Monotheism, it should be a non-prerequisite tech for the Ancient Age, it should allow you to build "Sacred Capital" small wonder (contintental happiness effects and culture), "The Ten Commandments" Great Wonder (Doubles the effects of religious improvements?? Otherwise, counts as a church in every city!)
and should allow you to build a church (more happiness than a temple, but less than a cathedral!). Theology should either be late ancient, or early Middle Ages tech, but should probably remain a pre-requisite of whatever era it occurs in! Theology would allow Cathedrals, the Inquisition small wonder (reduces corruption, increases happiness (a very fake happiness-caused more out of fear!), but would have a negative impact on both culture and science (I'm thinking a -25% science output in all cities) it would require 5 churches and a Sacred Capital to build it. Theology would also allow the Religious Crusade Small Wonder (continental happiness effects, plus counts as a Forge in every city!) again, requires 5 Churches and a Sacred Capital! Theology also allows Theocracy Government!
As for the empty tech's, I'v considered having a "Temple Complex" for Polytheism (requires a temple, reduces corruption and produces happiness and culture), as well as the Hagioacracy Government. Philosophy would also allow you to build an "Academy" (requires a library to build-culture and knowledge) and "School of Socrates" Great Wonder (counts as Academy in every city) i.e. fewer "empty techs". Most of the aforementioned buildings would be either obsoleted by later Techs, ro would be specific to Governments of the Ancient and/or Middle Ages.
Anyway, sorry for the long post but, what do you guys think? As always suggestions, comments and criticisms are always welcome!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	12-11-2002 06:40									#7
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I am just saying that you are usung Reformation as an advance, as if it is better than the "mother church" idea that precedeed it. All religions have upheavals, so use a name that could be applied to all cultures and areas. Perhaps "Religious Revival" or else something unspecific, so that it fits into the game better.

I do like the idea of expanding the religious buildings and their effects, as people forget that in the middle ages and ancient era, virtually everthing revolved around religion. Crusade is a good idea, but I think it should require you to declare war on a civ, and that it should give you a military bonus not a happiness one. Perhaps reduces the cost of military units by 30%?

Last edited by Patroklos on 12-11-2002 at 06:46

	12-11-2002 07:36									#8
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Hi Patroklos,

I should say that I'm not actually disagreeing with what you are trying to say, you do make a number of important points. I guess I chose Protestantism as the tech advance (and "Reformation" as the Small Wonder) just because it's the best known Religious revival I could think of (though I believe Judaism has gone through a number of such revivals in it's time!!), oh, and because it has a catchy name . I can assure you that the last thing I want is to get Judaeo-Christian "Centric"-so to speak!
I also agree with your thoughts on Crusade, up to a point. The happiness effect I mentioned was more to represent the "Religious Fervour" created amongst the masses by the declaration of a Jihad. The forge I mentioned is a "production improvement", so by putting one in every city you are, in effect, reducing the cost of building units by a certain %! Optionally, you could give the Small Wonder the flag from Leonardo's Workshop-though that would render this Great Wonder Obsolete . On another note, if they were to change the editor so that you can make units have a wonder or improvement as a prerequisite, then I was going to have Theology give you a "Preceptory" improvement. These were the places where Knights Templars were trained. I was then going to make that a pre-requisite for the Crusader Unit! As for the being at war prerequisite, I only wish you COULD set that as a requirement!!
Anyway, thats pretty much it for now. Any more thoughts you might have, please let me know!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	12-11-2002 10:43									#9
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what would be really cool would be DIFFERENT religious techs that could be researched in different tech branches. ie:

a montheism branch = judeo/christian-
temples/churches/cathedrals
reformation wonder(or something like it) etc

a polytheism branch = greek/roman/egyptian-
temples/oracles/something else (sacrificial altar?)
Mount olympus wonder (or something similar)

an eastern philosohy branch = hindu/budha type-
temples/meditation chapels
nirvana wonder (or something like it- oneness of being)

not too sure how this could be implemented, probably more of a civ4 thing. It would be cool to have different branches that were age specific, but not required. in other words, you could only research a tech for whom you had researched it's predecessor in the last age and each movement along that branch would bring new imp's to build with different effects, but you could always (if you wanted) go back and research another but maybe have it cancel out the effects of certain imp's. just thinking out loud here. make any sense?

lateralis

(oh yeah, and an atheism tech that would lead to total enlightentment in the modern age )

	13-11-2002 04:33									#10
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Hi Lateralis,

Actually, if I understand the Era_NONE concept in the newest version of the editor correctly (I don't have PtW, or a working computer, so I'm speculating), it might be possible to do what you are suggesting!
First up, you'd give each civ a specific starting tech which only they, and similar culture groups could have-e.g. Asian Civs might have Asiatic Culture tech, and European/Middle Eastern Civs might have a Causcasian Culture Tech. You might give the Indiginous peoples of Africa and America both techs-to give them more options, or you might give them a whole seperate tech. Anyway, you give thee techs the Era_NONE flag, which I believe makes them untradable, and specific to the Civs that have them.
OK, Ceremonial Burial----->Mysticism----->Polytheism (as normal) but now you might have Philosophy+Mysticism+Asiatic Culture----->Eastern Religions (Gives you Shrine Improvement, "The Eightfold Way" Small Wonder and the "Confuscianism Great Wonder) Code of Laws+Polytheism+Caucasian Culture----->Monotheism (Gives you Church Improvement, "Torah" or "Ten Commandments" Great Wonder, Sacred Capital Small Wonder and possibly "The Crucifixion" Great Wonder!). Theology still occurs in the Middle Ages, but should become a non-prerequisite tech (granting the Theocracy Gov. Cathedral improvement, and the Inquisition and Crusade Small Wonders, as well as the Cistine Chapel) and should branch out into the Techs of Orthodoxy and Reformation. Orthodoxy allows the for the Hagia Sophia Great Wonder, Ecumenical Council Small Wonder, and the ??? improvement. Reformation, as I mentioned before, gives you a Chapel improvement, and protestantism Small Wonder The other thing you might do is make some of the Ancient Religious Improvements Government Specific, and then limit them to a host of Ancient Government Types. The beauty of the system I mentioned above, is that you can still "trade" the actual religious techs with other civs-sort of representing Conversion!
Anyway, I think that could work!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	13-11-2002 12:05									#11
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Hi aussie, from the "way to much time on my hands" department, take a look at this, when you get a chance.

http://homepage.mac.com/mrjhandel/....lateralis20.jpg

Its redesigned ancient and middle ages with multiple religion branches at the bottom. Each branch will have a GW with the first step (ie 10 commandments) and Then another on the second step, (which I haven't come up with yet but I liked some of your ideas) I also think that any time a new tech on a different branch is learned will cancel wonders from a different branch. this way it will behoove someone to stay with their initial choice in branches, especially if they manage to get a wonder. I also think that the early religious wonders should not be canceled until at least astronomy or magnetism lets make them worthwhile.

the last thing, and this is what I'm not sure about in terms of implementation, the new icon with the question mark would signify that you must research at least one of the techs, but once one is researched the others become not required techs.

so that's my idea, falling asleep...

lateralis

and oh yeah, I was thinking of doing an industrial and modern age continuation as well, with a concentration on religious buildings that are only affective under certaikn govs. ie, an atheism tech that will have an imp (what I have no idea) that is only affective under communism (as I think that gov made religion a no-no) but with other cool stuff as well, babbleing now...