13-12-2002 22:55									#61
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Ok I'll keep Ai strategies.

P.S.
But will do other changes: bomb str. of 2 & 4 (instead of 3 & 5).

	13-12-2002 23:43									#62
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Ok I'll keep Ai strategies. P.S. But will do other changes: bomb str. of 2 & 4 (instead of 3 & 5).

They'll be less effective for mine/irrigation/road/railroad bombing.
And more planes would be needed to use for killing (hitting) 1hp enemies. (it's not definitively a positive change)

	14-12-2002 01:27									#63
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Hmm....

Maybe you are right.

But in that case I would still need to INCREASE price of Stl. Fighter, since I plan to add original cost of 240 to Stl. Bomber (so fighter needs to be less cost effective).

And to compensate for power of leathal/stealth combo.

	14-12-2002 02:12									#64
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Instead of increasing the cost of the stealth fighter, why don't you reduce its strength back to 4 (as it was originally)? The lethal ability compensates for its very slight disadvantage in cost-effectiveness compared to the stealth bomber, and its stealth ability is good enough to justify building it over the slightly less expensive (but equally cost-effective) Jet Fighters.

	14-12-2002 02:41									#65
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I'll think about it.

P.S.
Now, it's all messed up in my head.

I am not even sure, what I should and what I should not change.

	14-12-2002 02:52									#66
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Maybe this will help:

code:

         ===ORIGINAL===
         Unit       Str  ROF  Cost Dmg(HP) Value(%Bbr)
         -------------------------------------------------------
         Fighter     2    1     8   0.17     16
         Bomber      8    3    10   1.33    100
         Jet Ftr     2    1    10   0.17     13
         F-15        4    2    10   0.57     43 
         St. Ftr     4    2    12   0.57     36
         St. Bbr     8    3    24   1.33     42
         Cruise     16    3     6   1.85    231*+

         ===PROPOSED===
         Unit       Str  ROF  Cost Dmg(HP) Value(%Bbr)
         -------------------------------------------------------
         Fighter     2    2     8   0.33     31+
         Bomber      8    3    10   1.33    100
         Jet Ftr     3    2    10   0.46     35+
         F-15        5    2    10   0.67     50*+
         St. Ftr     4    2    12   0.57     36*+
         St. Bbr     8    3    24   1.33     42
         Cruise     16    4     6   2.46    308*+

         Tables assume a 10-strength defender
         Str = Bombard Strength
         ROF = Rate of fire
         Cost = shield cost / 10
         Dmg = expected damage in HP
         Value = Percentage of cost-effectiveness of bomber.
         * = lethal land bombard
         + = lethal sea bombard

	14-12-2002 04:52									#67
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After some thinking, here is the deal:

Batteships and AEGIS Cruiser get ROF reduced to 2 (from 3).
To compensate a little, they get Bomb. Str. increased to 10 (Batteship was 8) and 6 (AEGIS was 4). Also Batteship will get a little lower price of 220 (was 240).


Now, for air units, first I'll give original cost of 240 to Stl. Bomber.
Then, cost of Stl. Fighter will be changed to new price of 160.


What do you think?


P.S.
Bom. Str of 5 with cost of 160 will give 31 value for Stl. Fighter in that chart (and, by the way, you forgot * in for Jet Fighter).

Now this looks low, but you should consider that this is STEALTH craft, which gives many benefits (there is a reson why Stl. Bomber has just value of 42).

Or maybe it's to much and I whould drop it to 140?

	14-12-2002 18:42									#68
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Here we go again (another revision):

Battleship: 10/2 (was 8/3), cost 220 (was 240)
AEGIS Cruiser: 6/2 (was 4/3)

Jet Fighter: 4/2 (was 3/2)
F-15: 6/2 (was 5/2)
Stl. Fighter: 6/2 (was 5/2), cost 160 (was 120)
Stl. Bomber: cost 240 (was 200)

P.S.
And of course spy changes I discussed before (steal world map for diplomats and veteran spy status).

	15-12-2002 13:12									#69
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When you'd have interest i'll list the changes i've done on the current version of your mod. Maybe you could find something you'll like in it.


-air units changes
fighter has lethal land/naval bombing
jet fighter has a rof of 3, bombing strenght of 2
stealthfighter has no lethal bombing, has a rof of 3, bombing strenght of 4
f15 has a rof of 3, bombing strenght of 3
(converted fighter-class planes bombing stats to base on rof of 3 for them to have more chance to hit and destroy
a damaged enemy land/sea unit with the expense of less damage caused but it's a worthy change IMO because fighter-class
planes are mostly used to finish off bombed/damaged enemy ground units in the offense)
(stealthfighter is actually a bomber the way it's implemented in the game (real stealthfighters can also shoot down air units) so i took lethal bombing ability from them and increased their bombing power instead)

-following units have detect subs ability
fighter,jet fighter,f-15,carrier
(In real world there are specific anti-sub planes like the Nimrod of the US Navy, in Civ3 there aren't such planes.
I gave sub-seeing ability to fighters because only these planes can actually sink a (damaged) sub)
(Carrier's ability represents helicopter patrols around the carrier not a cutting-edge sonar)

-other changes to naval units
nukesub: carries 2 missiles (incl. nuclear), costs 14
cruiser: carries 2 cruise missiles, costs 18
carrier: carries 8 planes,costs 30
(the graphic shows nimitz class so be really huge)
battleship: carries 1 cruise missile

-from cannon up bombarding land units get defense values to be counter-bombardable and could be bombed by planes and missiles (though they can't be captured anymore)
cannon: 1 defense
artillery: 1 defense
radar artillery: 2 defense

-no bonus against barbarians at all difficulty levels

	15-12-2002 21:05									#70
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Here we go again (another revision): Battleship: 10/2 (was 8/3), cost 220 (was 240) AEGIS Cruiser: 6/2 (was 4/3) Jet Fighter: 4/2 (was 3/2) F-15: 6/2 (was 5/2) Stl. Fighter: 6/2 (was 5/2), cost 160 (was 120) Stl. Bomber: cost 240 (was 200) P.S. And of course spy changes I discussed before (steal world map for diplomats and veteran spy status).

I think I'll go with this version exept if there is some serius flaw here.

Comments:
Battleships get lower bombard efficiency in order to make bomber on carriers more needed. Before you could do well without any air support (exept air-defense on carriers).

And of course upped a little bomb. abilities of fighter-type planes (IMO upping ROF would not be good since that would make Cruise Missiles much less usefull).

Stl Fighter more expensive to relfect change in Stl. Bomber price to original 240.

Batteship a little bit cheaper (220) to compensate for lower bombard capability.

	15-12-2002 22:26									#71
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quote: Originally posted by player1 IMO upping ROF would not be good since that would make Cruise Missiles much less usefull

I disagree.
Cruise missiles are most useful for destroying garrisons of enemy cities (because it always hit units never pop or buildings and never misses). Secondly it's good for attacking enemy units during air inferiority (because it can't be shot down).

And increasing ROF of fighter-class planes makes them more effective in finishing off 1hp units -> less fighters used for the 'final blow'-s -> more fighters remain for air superiority (which was your intention)

	15-12-2002 22:37									#72
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In my version of your mod an overseas invasion starts with packs of cruise missiles (launched from cruisers/subs/battleships) destroying the garrison of an enemy harbor city (or more) than in the same turn marines capture this city(es) and then immediately ground forces land in the city(es) to secure.

The AI uses sea-based cruise missile attacks during their invasions too though with less strategic pre-planning.

	16-12-2002 00:11									#73
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True,

But I did try to increase accuracy of Jets/F-15/Stl. by giving them a little bit higher bomabrd rating (but not ROF).

On average, it IS somewere in the middile between your setting and my old settings.


Now, the question is, how AI in your MOD uses oversea cruise missiles?

Did you added AI Naval transport flag?

Do they use same transport using at offense too (attacking), since normally only one AI behavior is selected after unit gets built (so he would use one cuiser for transport and another for attacking).

P.S.
And doesn't your strategy make land invasions a little bit too easy? (less need for supporting carriers since missiles are caried by normal ships, and if you have carriers they can load huge number of fighters/bombers).

	16-12-2002 00:25									#74
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Now, the question is, how AI in your MOD uses oversea cruise missiles? Did you added AI Naval transport flag?

Have set cruiser and battleship to AI naval power ,AI naval missile transport, 'carry tactical missiles', and foot unit only.
I've set cruise missiles to 'tactical missile' and 'foot unit'.

quote: Originally posted by player1 Do they use same transport using at offense too (attacking), since normally only one AI behavior is selected after unit gets built (so he would use one cuiser for transport and another for attacking).

It's hard to observe because you just see a missile impact.
But i still haven't seen cruisers/battleships running away from chanceful battles because they might carried missiles before.

quote: Originally posted by player1 P.S. And doesn't your strategy make land invasions a little bit too easy? (less need for supporting carriers since missiles are caried by normal ships, and if you have carriers they can load huge number of fighters/bombers).

Maybe but man i call my mod: naval power mod.

	16-12-2002 03:31									#75
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quote: Originally posted by kettyo Maybe but man i call my mod: naval power mod.

Exactly.

	18-12-2002 01:32									#76
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Made some more changes.

-lowered fighter attack to 3, jet fighter (+ f-15) attack to 6
-lowered bomber and helicopter defense to 1

Modified aerial battle odds to encourage fighter sweeps and fighter-bomber raids. Now an intercepting fighter has 3:2 odds to hit an attacking fighter (was 2:1 before) , the same for jet-fighters incl. f-15. But an intercepting fighter has 3:1 odds to hit an intercepted bomber/helicopter (was 2:1 before), jet fighter and f-15 has 6:1 odds to hit in such an interception (was 3:1 before).

What are your thoughts about this player1 and other veterans?

	18-12-2002 02:36									#77
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Interesting, but personnaly I don't have problems with old values.

	18-12-2002 04:11									#78
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Version 1.12 is OUT!

Comments to changes in v1.12

Spy experience was changed to Veteran for all non-communist governments and to Elite for Communist government. That way, I've increased success chances for spying missions, which are by default low. Note that Diplomat experience is still Regular, so you'll have good reason to use Spy instead of Diplomat for Steal Tech mission.

Also Steal World Map mission is added to Diplomats. World Map is most useful in ancient era anyway.

ROF for Battleship and AEGIS Cruiser is changed back to 2. With ROF of 3, they were really powerful, especially Battleship, which could be as good as bomber, and also an assault ship. Still in order to make Battleship more then "slightly better then Destroyer", it gets bombard strength of 10. AEGIS Cruiser also gets higher bombard strength of 6 too. Since Battleship is not good as before it gets price reduced to 220 (still more then original price of 200 shields).

Some planes get a little bit higher bombard rating. Jet Fighters get bombard rating of 4 (was 3), and F-15 and Stl. Fighter get bombard rating of 6 (was 4). This is mostly done to make these units more balanced compared to other naval and air units.

Stl. Bomber cost changed back to 240, since it IS worth that much. But, in order to make it balanced with Stl. Fighter, Stl. Fighter gets new price of 160 shields. Costly, but anything cheaper would make use of Stl. Bomber meaningless since Stl. Fighter has lethal bombard abilities.

NOTE: All changes done in v1.12 are also done in non-PtW version of this MOD.

	19-12-2002 21:24									#79
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When you fancy trying my 'naval power mod' out you could download it here .

	21-12-2002 21:16									#80
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In my experience in the medieval era every AI civs prefer republic government over monarchy. We may have to do something to make some of the AI civs choose republic and some monarchy. The two governments are on the same level of technological development.

And in historical medieval era almost every real civs was monarchies at that time. (Switzerland, a small country was a republic if i remember well)

	21-12-2002 23:06									#81
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Maybe switching their corruption rate would balance them out well...

	22-12-2002 01:37									#82
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It depends.

Republic is usuauly taken since it gives much higher gold income.

But, sometimes in times of war, AI goes to Monarchy too.

P.S.
Unfortunately, difference between corruption level in Monarchy and Republic is so minor that I don't think it would make a difference (nor for human, nor for AI).

Personnally much bigger probelm is modern choice betweeen Communism and Democracy (since Democracry is far superior).


For now, I'll try not to change anything (and monitor experiments done by AU MOD team).

	23-12-2002 18:15									#83
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Unfortunately, difference between corruption level in Monarchy and Republic is so minor that I don't think it would make a difference (nor for human, nor for AI).

Now i'm playing a single game on a huge map with all possible civs with my version of your mod and monarchy and republic have their corruption level changed.

In this game (medieval age) large AI civs choose monarchy in peacetime too. Small civs stick with republic.

It seems good to me. Much better than the case when everybody runs republic in the feudal world which is quite funny isn't it.

I'll play another game on a standard size map and when i'd experience the same i'll do the corruption change to these governments in my version of your mod.

	23-12-2002 18:35									#84
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Are there many wars out there?

AI sometimes swichs to Monarchy to remove war warriness.

	23-12-2002 22:27									#85
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Are there many wars out there? AI sometimes swichs to Monarchy to remove war warriness.

There are plenty of wars.

But Mongolia (large civ) for instance never had any wars and has monarchy govt. (they have got republic tech of course)

	23-12-2002 23:35									#86
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Hmm....

It's possibile that with large empires difference in corruption is big enough to make Monarchy better choice.

	24-12-2002 04:25									#87
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Player 1,

What are your key preferences for Monarchy and Republic?

If cities are Size2 AI may prefer Monarchy because happiness support for Republic is not existent yet.

In my preferences AI goes Monarchy only when large or in many wars. I change worker speed in Republic to match Democracy. PTW should have come out with more government choices.

I have found you can go republic early or late but not in the start of the middle ages if you have many pop 7-10 cities and not enough marketplaces/temples/cathedrals.

Re: "republic is only late", huh, I thought I remember hearing Senators were a problem both in ancient Rome and in civ2.

== PF

	24-12-2002 04:43									#88
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In original game (and in this MOD too since gov. and not changed), the key question is not will you go in the republic, the question is when you'll go in republic.

And the answer is when you get 3-4 luxures.
(needed to keep happiness whoit lux. slider)

Before that Monarhcy is supreme.

P.S.
Republic trade bonus usualy outweighs full unit support.

	25-12-2002 01:58									#89
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Before that Monarhcy is supreme.

Yeah but AI-s almost always change to republic as they get the tech instantly in original rules no matter how many luxuries they have.

So i think now i'll keep the corruption change. Just have to test it on a standard map too.

	07-01-2003 00:12									#90
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Just a couple of things i've wondered if you have or would consider adding to your mod:

1. Adding +1 hp to the Nuclear Sub and AEGIS seeing as they are modern age ships.

2. Making Privateers appear with Navigation? The AI will then build them during the period between Navigation and Magnetism.

3. Adding +2 to the bombard strength or +1 to the ROF of the modern ships (Destroyer/Battleship/AEGIS) you have in your mod? I feel they are still too weak compared to Bombers the way you have them...

4. Giving the Guerilla a 0 range bombard ability of 6? This makes them useful support troops when defending in stacks and gives a reason for building these units other than when one lacks rubber and upgrading archaic swordsmen/longbowmen.

5. If you consider the main difference between the Frigate/MOW and the Ironclad to be in defence as opposed to weaponry then why not add a +1 to the Frigate's and MOW's bombard ability?

6. Why not make the Ironclad slightly slower than the Frigate/MOW? One way to do this is to give the Ocean a movement of 2 and allow every ship save the Ironclad and Galley to ignore the ocean movement. Ironclads were never really deep-sea ships anyhow.

7. Lower steal plans and steal technology to 7 and 8 respectively and lower investigate city greatly (to 1, 2 or 3?). Why's it so much to investigate cities anyway?

8. Lower pop rushing and drafting penalties to 10 turns.... there's your Communism boost in a oner.

9. As a consequence of this making Depostism too good give it a rate cap of 7 (i.e. 70% science/tax maximum) on the slider. This will help curb early tech rushing from the AI using 100% science strategies in the Ancient Period and make it desirable to change out of Despotism.

10. Consider changing the unit support of Monarchy and Communism to 3, 6 and 12 instead of 2, 4 and 8? War doesn't cripple the AI so much, but builder strategies are still better in Democracy.

11. Make elite units have 6 hp? Helps Militaristic civs and makes elite soldiers really worth looking after.

12. Longevity under Sanitation? Lets face it, it's fairly useless where you have it under Genetics.

13. Make Cure of Cancer a culture Wonder, say providing 50 culture points where it's created? Have you ever seen a Cultural victory? I haven't but i'd sure like to see one without necessarily having to conquer all the other civs to reach it. By all accounts, people that achieve Cultural victories are nearly at Domination victory anyway. In my opinion this is wrong and Cultural victories should be achievable with less aggressive measures. However, maybe this isn't enough on its own to make a difference as it comes so late in the game. In fact i'd like to know how to achieve a hard fought Cultural victory from a mainly astute builder's strategy? Any ideas?

Other thoughts/questions:

1. Why add a +1 defence to the Cossack? Having a 4 defence is more useful than you think.

2. More of an explanation this....
Propaganda makes citizens unhappy. The reason i know this is i've had the AI try it to me repeatedly in the same city. I think propaganda is successful when the number of unhappy citizens reaches a certain level (disorder maybe!?) and therefore the more times propaganda missions are attempted in one city the greater the likelihood it will succeed. Hence the reason it's better to use propaganda in a city of a civilisation currently in a period of anarchy.

Anyway, these are all simply suggestions as many of these i use myself and i'd ike to hear your thoughts on them. More to come when i can think of more.