12-11-2002 19:12									#1
	Yep, it's a totally different beast... Enter the AD-FREE zone

This is not so much a complaint as an observation: Has anyone noticed that the starting positions on the random maps tend to be scrap for the human players ?

I've been experimenting with the new civs and have found that most games don't last past 1000 AD, because I have yet to get a decent start. I've seen some wonderful resources around my cities, but without rivers to irrigate, you can't come close to producing settlers at the rate the AI civs do it. And this leaves only warmongering to balance the scale. The AI civs all seem to get starts with either Flood Plains or at least a river at their capital site.

The last game I started was a classic. Two hills with gold, two wheat on plains, and desert all around. I explored a considerable area of the map before running into anyone, and I couldn't find a river to irrigate with so the best I could do was 2 food per square. As a credit to the first AI civ I found, it had irrigated almost every square possible and had populations of 5-6 in all their cities, while the best I had was 4 and most were stuck at 2.

This is not a chance occurence since every start since installing and patching PtW has been like this. And as for resources, the maps seem to have more resources so trading options are minimal or non existant (and I still have use the editory to get the silly AI civs to build harbours when they are on small continents...)

I like the AI agressiveness, but it will take some more tinkering to balance out the playing field at Regent level at least. It's enough to be behind by a couple of units or techs, but to have to be dead last in population is a death sentence at any level.

D.

	12-11-2002 19:18									#2
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Last game I started was right next to a river, lots grassland and gold on a mountain nearby. Decent spots for second and third cities close by, with incence and wine.

	12-11-2002 19:43									#3
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I disagree, it's a crap shoot. Sometimes you luck out other times you don't. More often than not I've had a decent start are.

	12-11-2002 19:49									#4
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Warpstorm,

I know it's supposed to be luck of the draw, but every game since the install ? (about 10 starts)

The ones I love the best are the small islands with mountains as the most common land type, or the peninsula and mountains combination. I guess I was spoiled by locations I could work to better advantage in CivIII. At least the terrain looks nice even if I can't do much with it.


D.

	13-11-2002 04:12									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

It's just bad luck, I guess. I have great and decent starts, but not really any bad ones since install.

	13-11-2002 04:23									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I'm with the General... I've been getting crap. I'm a re-starter though, within reason, so ctrl-shft-q it is.

	13-11-2002 09:39									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I almost always get a river at startup, I almost thought it was automatic. What I hate is all the jungle I usually have to clear somewhere in my civ. But once it's cleared, that's very satisfying.

	13-11-2002 10:12									#8
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Been getting rivers at least half the time.

	13-11-2002 10:30									#9
	At least I'm not alone Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Theseus,

It's good to know I'm not the only one. Thought I was loosing it or something.

Guess it's back to being fussy about the starting site again. With 1.29, I never had a site I couldn't work given some scouting, but like I said, it's a totally different beast now.

Well I have yet to try the Koreans so they will get the next round of abuse from the AI.


D.

	13-11-2002 10:43									#10
	Inflate your Upload Space

yea i been gettin really crappy starting positions too.
my major problem right now is the barbarians. i think the barbarians in ptw puts out warriors and horseman at a very high rate. one turn u see 1 barb warrior and next turn u see 2 barb, 2 horsies and its tuff to run all of dem down.

	13-11-2002 11:29									#11
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Actually, I've gotten some of the best start locations I've ever had since the XP. So, I guess that just reinforces the crap-shoot idea.

	14-11-2002 00:05									#12
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I used to get rivers, and sometimes rivers with shields and a bunch of cattle...now I rarely see cattle...and many times I am not near a river. I'm in the cntrl shift q crowd. If it doesn't look good, then I don't bother.

	14-11-2002 11:37									#13
	Got spare money?

I've had a string of better than average starting locations, too. A couple of real beauties.

Pre-PTW, good/bad starts always seemed to run in streaks of 8 or 10 in a row. I imagine PTW will do the same.

	14-11-2002 18:53									#14
	Remove this text

One thing I've begun to do in regular CIV III (haven't bought PTW yet) is modify so you can irrigate without rivers (or any connection to water) beginning with construction. I'm not even sure when this normally kicks in but it usually shows up much later. This removes some of the disparity between the haves and have-nots early in the game.

	15-11-2002 06:15									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

That would work, lewsir, but the extra commerce early on is one of the keys to having a good start.

	15-11-2002 13:28									#16
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I've had some really awesome starts and some unbelievably cruddy ones.

The problem with "random" on computers is, there's not really any such thing.

Take Theseus' lead and restart if you are unhappy.
Personally, I've had so many rivers lately, I forgot how painful it is to have to build Aqueducts.

Better luck to ya'.

	15-11-2002 13:53									#17
	Remove this text

I play with what I get. More crappier the start, more interesting/challenging the game.