13-11-2002 07:10									#1
	Civilizations and their Golden Age Increase Your PM Length

1- What is a Golden Age (GA) ?
Golden Age is a period of time over which your civ is a lot more prosperous. It typically lasts for 20 turns in which you get +1 shield and +1 commerce. It can be triggered wither by an Unique Unit win, or by successfully build the wonders associated with your civilization traits ( The pyramids are both Religious and Industrious, Leonardo’s Workshop is Militaristic, etc.)

2- What are the advantages of a GA ?
Basically, you can do whatever you want during that time. You’ll catch up / gain a lead techwise. You’ll build a lot of improvements and wonders. You’ll pile up huge amounts of gold. The prospects are great.

3- What are the disadvantages of a GA ?
Well… There can be only one per civ per game; let’s not waste it! Since you get a lot more gold per turn coming in, the AI may ask you more for the same trade deal.

4- What is the best time to have a GA ?

- An ANCIENT GA is good for REX and great for early war. It can successfully build the foundations of a great empire later in the game. See, REX, An essay and Theseus’ Early War threads. REX in GA is good, but not great, because you need more food than shields in the early game to pump out settlers effectively. Moreover, you typically are in despotism through most of the Ancient Age, suffering the appropriate tile penalties. Your GA bonus is not as good as in Republic or even Monarchy.

- An EARLY MEDIEVAL GA is great for building wonders such as Sun Tzu’s Art of War, Sistine Chapel, Leonardo’s Workshop or even Copernicus Observatory. It is often used to build a huge amount of horsemen / knights for later upgrade to cavalry (with the help of Leo’s and Sun Tzu’s). By then, you should have got out of Despotism, either to Republic or Monarchy. A Republic GA can be really powerful scientifically because of the trade bonus this form of government enjoys.

- A LATE MEDIEVAL GA is great for the later wonders (Adam Smith’s, Newton’s, etc.) but is typically a warmongering GA. By triggering this kind of GA, the beelining for Military Tradition becomes really easier, thus crushing your opponents. You may try to be in Democracy for this kind of GA.

- An INDUSTRIAL GA is mainly military. Except Hoover and TOE, there are not many notable wonders, so use your GA and your newly built railroads to boost your production and build an impressive amount of military units.

- A MODERN GA can only help for the completion of the spaceship or for the remaining of your conquest of the world.


Timeline for GAs
EARLY

Aztecs Jaguar warrior (1/1/2)
Zulu Impi (1/2/2)
Greece Hoplite (1/3/1)
Egyptian War Chariot (1/1/2) Horses
Babylonians Bowman (2/2/1)
Rome Legionary (3/3/1) Iron
Persia Immortal (4/2/1) Iron
Iroquois Mounted warrior (3/1/2) Horses

Last edited by Konquest02 on 14-11-2002 at 03:49

	13-11-2002 07:44									#2
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AFAIK, point 3 is not correct.

(not the "only once a game" part btw)

	13-11-2002 07:50									#3
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This is what I got from my experience...

I wanted to buy Astronomy to the Chinese (playing as the French). They asked for some gold and 5gpt. I declined and waited for the next turn. Meanwhile, my musketeer won a battle and I went in GA. The next turn, I was getting 200 gpt and the Chinese were asking for 30 gpt instead of 5. But maybe it wasn't because of the GA....

--Kon--

	13-11-2002 08:24									#4
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I think the point is to not waste your GA and that is valid. Then it comes down to what constitutes wasting it. I got riders right after a sneak attack by Rome (they were #1) and triggered a GA, which was very nice timing. I smoked them with my riders whacking on medinf and couple of legions. I picked up 10 new cities right in the GA. I love GA's during the middle ages.

	13-11-2002 12:23									#5
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Golden age does not double your shield production - it only adds +1 per shield-yielding tile. And under despotism the forests are not included...

	13-11-2002 20:33									#6
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Ah, Golden Age timing, one of my favorite topics!

As far as I'm concerned, a despotic GA is a wasted GA. It is something I avoid like the plague. This goes hand-in-hand with a GA during your REX phase. REXing with extra shields but no extra food is, IMO, dumb. Frankly, during your GA you want as many citizens working the land in non-corrupt cities as possible. Building settlers (dropping your core cities by 2 citizens each time) to send off to the outskirts of the empire during your GA is extremely counterproductive.

As for timing, I used to be convinced that the early middle ages (due to the three big wonders) was the optimal time, but have since started playing on Emperor, and now find that the "best" time really does vary. In my Emp games, I feel that a late ancient age (non-despotic, mind you) GA is best.

One thing that I feel should be mentioned is that one can trigger a GA without the use of your civ's UU. In a recent game, I was playing China and was falling behind - I needed a GA and I needed it ASAP, so I built the Great Wall, an otherwise useless wonder. But the ensuing GA allowed me to build up a large military and get some marketplaces & libraries built. It was a turning point in what became a resounding win.

By the same token, you can trigger an unwanted GA by building a particular wonder. I often play Egypt, but never build the Pyramids (though I hope a neighbor does) because it would mean a despotic GA.

The other thing to consider when discussing GA timing is that although a later GA is typically a more powerful GA, an earlier GA will have ripple effects through the rest of the game. Also consider, as aaglo pointed out, that the GA simply adds +1 shield per shield-producing tile (and the same for commerce). Therefore, an industrial age GA (with RR's and hospitals) may have more raw power than an earlier one, but the earlier GA will represent a bigger percentage gain. A city in the industrial age which produces 40 shields may jump to 50 (25% gain), where as a Medieval city producing 15 shields may jump to 25 (66% gain).

-Arrian

	14-11-2002 00:30									#7
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Arrian:

Your last point is why I prefer a mid to late medieval GA. It helps with the rush to miltrad, and comes before factories and railroads. It helps you get to them fast. It happens under republic.

I usually only build one or two of the "big three" (I assume you mean Sun's, Sistine and JSB, since these all scale to nearly every city and never expire). I usually capture one during the cavalry stage.

	14-11-2002 00:49									#8
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Brizey,

Oops, I meant to explain which wonders I meant by "big three."

I'm referring to Sun Tzu, Sistine and Leo's. Bach is also a big one, but there is enough separation between it and the first three that the AI's cascade can be halted. My "big three" are all so close together than getting all three w/o the wonder cascade snatching one out from under you can be very difficult.

-Arrian

	14-11-2002 01:08									#9
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Leo's is the wonder that I always miss. Lately I have been able to do pretty well at Emperor and several times I got nearly every non-ancient wonder other than one.
Once it was Kopernikus (because I bee-lined for MT :/ ) every other time it was Leo's I missed.
I like Leo's but usually I have settled down for complete peace and building after the completion of Leo's so it isn't all that useful for me by then.

I like medieval GA's, otherwise it's too early or too late.

An early medieval GA is good if your game went well so far and you feel strong enough to build all the early medieval wonders. If your game has not been too good, you should wait for a late medieval GA to start with a good advantage in the industrial times.
I usually use GA's if I'm right behind of the other AI's productionwise as well as in techs so I can finally gain the lead on the planet.

Last edited by badman on 14-11-2002 at 18:39

	14-11-2002 01:56									#10
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Yeah, I like Leo's better than JSB. I guess I think of it as a middle medieval GW rather than a early medieval GW. FWIW, I play on Monarch. I usually get fuedalism and theocracy from the GL, which lets me get started on the ST and SC. Then I beeline for invention so I have a back-up tech (three GW possible and two being built). Trying to build all three never works. I like to play the French, so I want gunpowder for my UU. I then trigger a GA and try to accomplish two things: the rush to miltrad and building at least two of the three wonders. Sometimes I'll buy music theory if I think someone is going to beat me to two of the three wonders so I have another backup.

	14-11-2002 03:44									#11
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I stand corrected on +1 shield, my mistake. I'll edit it on the first post...

--Kon--

	14-11-2002 04:44									#12
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I just have a hard time given up my love of Leo that started with Civ2. I know it is not required, but I am a chump for it. I never build JS Bach as I do not research Music and pick it up as an after though.

	14-11-2002 14:14									#13
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As Religius civ, I normally build Sistine and cathedral while delaying to build Bach and coloseum.

But I've just realize that if I have Bach and Sistine and have all happiness building in my size 12 city, it won't have unhappy citizen even in Deity, provided there's no additional unhappiness factor such as War Weariness.

In such situation, I only need at least 6 happy faces either from luxury resource or slider to have WLTKD. Without Bach I'll need at least 13.

Edit : typo

Last edited by Ekanata on 14-11-2002 at 14:57

	14-11-2002 20:13									#14
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Leo's can be a game breaker if you skipped the knight phase and have 50 horseman on a small map to upgrade to cav.

	15-11-2002 02:29									#15
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It's very difficult to get the GA with the American F-15.
(Basically you are dependant upon the AI sending a bomber at the city / carrier you have your F-15 set to Patrol the skies to get your GA that way.)

I instead prefeer to get my GA when playing the Americans via a wonder combo. (Ideallly when the Hoover Dam is built.)

There's also some civs that can get a Golden Age earlier with a single Great Wonder.

England : Great Light House or Collosus.

China: Great Wall

India : Collosus

And in addition, Russia and especally Germany can easily build a combo of wonders to bring up their Golden Age significantly.

	15-11-2002 03:15									#16
	Re: Civilizations and their Golden Age Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Konquest02 - An ANCIENT GA is good for REX and great for early war. It can successfully build the foundations of a great empire later in the game. See, REX, An essay and Theseus’ Early War threads. REX in GA is good, but not great, because you need more food than shields in the early game to pump out settlers effectively. Moreover, you typically are in despotism through most of the Ancient Age, suffering the appropriate tile penalties. Your GA bonus is not as good as in Republic or even Monarchy.

Nobody else seems to be bringing it up...

EARLY WARMONGERING!!!

Say after me: Legions! Immortals!! Celtic Swordsmen!!!

And what about : War Chariots! Mounted Warriors!!

Given the right situation, you can basically "win the game early" the game with a GA-supported military build-up.

	15-11-2002 03:20									#17
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I thought that was obvious, so I didn't really go into it. But yeah, the GA-fired military buildup works pretty well. But the huge jump in production IMO warrants using the GA to produce important expensive infrastructure (marketplaces, libraries if you're not scientific, etc). Particularly when I'm Egypt... war chariots are so cheap anyway, using a GA to build more of them is a bit wasteful.

-Arrian

	15-11-2002 03:34									#18
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Theseus raises a great point, particularly with regard to the Celts, IMO. The Gallic Swordsman (or "Red," as I've taken to calling him) is kick-a$$ on the battlefield, but bloody expensive! (Pun intensive.) But building one, then using him to trigger a GA, should suddenly create a productive capacity equal to the task of churning these guys out. I'm thinking this might be a very effective strategy. Hold off on using him until a basic REX phase is over, but definitely while the AI civs are still defending with spear. Erect a first round of infrastructure, esp. barracks and temples. Build just a few Reds. When everything is ready, let 'em rip.

	15-11-2002 07:19									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I thought that was obvious, so I didn't really go into it. But yeah, the GA-fired military buildup works pretty well. But the huge jump in production IMO warrants using the GA to produce important expensive infrastructure (marketplaces, libraries if you're not scientific, etc). Particularly when I'm Egypt... war chariots are so cheap anyway, using a GA to build more of them is a bit wasteful.

Granted, there are cities that can build horsemen and swordsmen just as quickly as war chariots, but my usual answer to that when engaging in Egyptian warmongering is to let them do so. Other than that, the cheapness of War Chariots opens the way for hoardes of them to overwhelm any enemy that doesn't have three-value defenders. (By the way, all else being equal, I tend to use war chariots in higher-risk battles and horsemen in lower-risk ones in the hope that a disproportionate number of horsemen will survive to become knights. They are, after all, cheaper to upgrade.)

One interesting strategy for civs with horseman-level or swordsman-level UUs is to time an offensive and golden age for just after the switch from Despotism to a more enlightened form of government. That provides a window of opportunity to get more efficient use of the golden age and still strike before enemies have pikemen.

Nathan

	15-11-2002 07:26									#20
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I reckon the best way to use Gallic swordsmen would be to build about 5 or so, and to back them up with many more horsemen, say 10-15 depending on map size. That way you'd get their defensive bonus, not slow them down, and save a ton on shields. I've not tried them though, don't have PTW yet.

	15-11-2002 08:10									#21
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Pikemen... Use a GA for Sword- or Horse-level UUs, and I'll take on Pikes all day long.

	15-11-2002 08:25									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Pikemen... Use a GA for Sword- or Horse-level UUs, and I'll take on Pikes all day long.

If a GA lasted all day long, I might try that myself.

Seriously, I tend to regard the kind of casualty rates that result from that sort of fighting as rather wasteful, and a GA doesn't really change the level of waste involved, just the player's ability to afford it. Given a choice, I prefer to focus on city improvements during the times when defenders have the advantage and save my warmongering for when attackers have the advantage.

Nathan

	15-11-2002 08:36									#23
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AU 108 (right? Rome?) convinced me... wasteful, perhaps, but a concentration of overwhelming force does the trick. We'll see... that's against the AI.

	15-11-2002 08:58									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus AU 108 (right? Rome?) convinced me... wasteful, perhaps, but a concentration of overwhelming force does the trick. We'll see... that's against the AI.

Turn it around and you have my point: it might do the trick, but it does so in a wasteful manner. There are times when a player has no choice but to fight on unfavorable terms because the AI has a tech lead and will continue to have one unless and until the human player does enough successful warmongering to get more territory. That's the situation Son of SVC created; even with the Great Library, the best I could hope for without attacking was temporary tech parity. But if I'm big enough that I can use my production to build city improvements and then leverage those city improvements into a tech lead that lets me fight with fewer casualties, I regard that as a lot more efficient.

Nathan

	15-11-2002 20:29									#25
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Granted, there are cities that can build horsemen and swordsmen just as quickly as war chariots, but my usual answer to that when engaging in Egyptian warmongering is to let them do so. Other than that, the cheapness of War Chariots opens the way for hoardes of them to overwhelm any enemy that doesn't have three-value defenders. (By the way, all else being equal, I tend to use war chariots in higher-risk battles and horsemen in lower-risk ones in the hope that a disproportionate number of horsemen will survive to become knights. They are, after all, cheaper to upgrade.) One interesting strategy for civs with horseman-level or swordsman-level UUs is to time an offensive and golden age for just after the switch from Despotism to a more enlightened form of government. That provides a window of opportunity to get more efficient use of the golden age and still strike before enemies have pikemen. Nathan

That's exactly what I do. I beeline for Monarchy while building my attack force, and as soon as I switch governments, I unleash my horde.

The first part of my GA will be spent building more units (horsemen over WCs, agreed, if the turns are the same). Then, once ravaged AI civ #1 coughs up their tech, the core cities will switch to markets & libraries, while the periphery goes to courthouses (if available). The war machine rumbles on w/o reinforcements for a bit now. Like you, I will use WCs over horsemen in "high-risk" combat.

DrFell,

That's how I see the Gallic Swordsmen as well: build a small number (or rather upgrade them from warriors) and use them in concert with larger numbers of horsemen. I would probably build 5 vet warriors, connect my iron, blow 400 gold to upgrade them, and then send them off to fight barbarians, hoping to get them elite and make some of that money back.

The problem with them is this: they're powerful, not invincible. I'm finishing up a game as the Iroquois right now (with 1.29, not PTW) and I can tell you that I lost several MWs to regular spearmen. Hell, I lost at least two MWs to 1-defense units (an archer, a jag warrior). Imagine losing a 50-shield unit to a regular warrior on flat ground. I might throw the monitor out the window.

With CivIII's combat system/RNG, I'd rather have a horde of WCs than a smaller number of MWs or an even smaller number of GSs. I lose a WC, no big deal. I lose a MW, that hurts. I lose a GS, and its a minor catastrophe.

-Arrian