13-11-2002 07:44									#1
	An obliging senate. Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

"A funny thing happened when I was playing Civ today..."

I was playing a new game - Deity, 7 Civs, gigamap, raging hordes. ToT, although I don't see why that would matter. It's 1730 or so, and I'm in Democracy, picking off coastal Greek cities with cruisers/destroyers and then occupying them with riflemen.

Great fun, wouldn't you say? But wait, it gets better... usually when I captured a Greek city, the Greeks would send an emissary... and every single time I was able to continue the war. No forced ceasefire, nothing. It had to have happened at least 3 times. And no, I don't have the UN (no-one has it).

Has anyone seen this before? I do have MPE, which is still working... but I don't think MPE grants freedom from Senate interference. Otherwise, I was sure that Democracy meant Senate-imposed peace, 100% of the time.

	13-11-2002 22:58									#2
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Had the Greeks hassled you or Sneak-attacked you in the past? Rep/Dem Senates seem to stay out of things if you have been the "victim" of multiple Sneak attacks or demands for tribute.

	13-11-2002 23:47									#3
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My limited experience (all in MGE for Mac) is that you can stay on a war footing indefitely in Democracy as long as the other civs are warlike -- sneak attacks, breaking treaties, etc. I seem to recall RAH telling me that, especially later in the game, there's no reason to switch to other governments. You can conquer the world by enticing the other civs to attack you, then will be permitted the lattitude to "defend yourself" by wiping them off the globe.

Repeat:
My experience is limited, but it supports Rah's contention.
If it's indeed true, you might as well keep the Demo production...

	14-11-2002 05:09									#4
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The Greeks had attacked me in the past. Triremes with 2 elephants landing outside my size 22 capital garrisoned with riflemen BUT, those weren't sneak attacks, because I had never signed a peace treaty with 'em. I accepted 100 g to ally against the Greeks way back around 1000 BC, and didn't speak with them after that until I started invading their cities.

So, it's not as if I'm enticing them to attack me by continually ordering them out of my territory, as rah suggests. I've done that trick before and it works like a charm In this case, it's not that treaties are being broken - I haven't even been forced into one!

The other thing that seems odd is that there was never a forced peace, and IIRC (I'm at work now), the message I got when attempting to refuse a ceasefire wasn't the:

'Previous Greek aggression convinces the Senate to allow this action'

message, but was instead the 'war' message one gets when refusing peace in a nonrepresentative government. Hmm. Weird. Or perhaps I just never noticed this before.

	14-11-2002 05:28									#5
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Come to think of it, I was behind the Greeks on the PG (which doesn't happen often) - perhaps that's why the Senate was so obliging?

	14-11-2002 07:41									#6
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i've never noticed that before... then again i'm a big commie

	14-11-2002 21:05									#7
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Hmmm, as stated by others, yes, I can usually continue a war and tempt others to attack, but I've never been able to refuse an offered peace treaty in Democ. (without the UN, of course)
My guess would be a bug in TOT, but in all honesty, later in the game if I'm in Democ, I have the UN, so maybe I just haven't experienced enough times to see this one.

	16-11-2002 23:08									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man ... I had never signed a peace treaty with 'em. I accepted 100 g to ally against the Greeks way back around 1000 BC, and didn't speak with them after that until I started invading their cities.

Therein lies the answer.

You were at war when you switched to democracy? If so, or if you were already a democracy in 1000bc, then the senate may not interfere. If the Greeks had ever attacked one of your units and you'd not made peace since then, they may just view your actions as justified.

	17-11-2002 01:24									#9
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I don't think it would matter whether at war or peace when switching to Rep/Dem, the Senate just wants peace 50%/100% of the time when the opportunity presents itself. I suppose the other civ's reputation might make a difference when it comes to refusing their emmissaries. If you are spotless and they are scum the Senate might diregard their peace offer as disingenuous.

	10-12-2002 23:02									#10
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Any way to tell what they other civs Reputation is? I know about the power rating display.

	14-12-2002 01:19									#11
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I remember reading somewhere that in a Rep/Dem, if you (ever?) signed a peace agreement, then the Senate had a disposition to agree to CF/Peace; the implication might be that failing a past peace agreement, the Senate may have fewer grounds to stop the hawks.

	21-12-2002 13:25									#12
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I love it when they vow to wipe your civilization off the face of the Earth. I laugh all the way into their capital, and laugh even harder when I raze it and salt the earth.

Then I get the hiccups.

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