13-11-2002 20:25									#1
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I was wondering if it is worth those one or two turns to find a better city spot with a settler or not.
This is assuming that you don't say to hell with it and start another game.

	13-11-2002 20:40									#2
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You forgot the most important choice - "It depends." Generally I will build from the starting spot; however, if the position would leave me at a severe disadvantage, I will move on, but the position really has to suck.

	13-11-2002 20:49									#3
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I chose the second option. I will typically build where I start, but will sometimes move 1 tile over. I will not wander, as turns are precious.

-Arrian

	13-11-2002 21:28									#4
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If moving my settler by one tile moves it into a better place, I will move it. I have to start in a really ugly place to move the settler by more than one tile though...

	13-11-2002 21:35									#5
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I used to be a strict "plop down" person, but I saw to many poor locations (by a tile or two). I think a few moves is more important in Civ 3 that in 1 or 2. cus'
1. there seems to be more starts on "just plain bad places"
2. with the pop cost of settlers increased to two, a bonus food resource spot is a big benefit.

	14-11-2002 00:24									#6
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I think it is safe to say that a move of one tile to be next to a river would be justified.

	14-11-2002 00:37									#7
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... and one to get off a cow, and in between a patch of 3 cows is justified too...

DeepO

	14-11-2002 00:40									#8
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ummm... nothing like starting next to cows

	14-11-2002 00:41									#9
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If you can see you are exacly one square from two or threee ocean squares, you could be better off moving to or away from the ocean.

	14-11-2002 01:24									#10
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I dedicated some discussion to this issue in the

Improving Your Opening Play Sequences Article

and you can find the topic from the menu under "when to relocate". Read the article and your perspective will be greatly expanded.

In general, most start positions may be less than 100% perfect, but you set yourself back by more than you gain if you fail to recognize that only the top 5 or 6 terrain squares in the start position will really impact you game.

Wandering around with the first settler is almost always a bad idea.

If you are in doubt about the start position you should consider moving your worker (and/or your scout if you have one) before you move or plant the settler.

If you play on warlord or cheiftain levels, a little wandering will not kill you but on Monarch level and above this can be a self inflicted head wound.

Good luck,

	14-11-2002 03:25									#11
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I wander for no more than 1-2 turns...and only to get off/get close enough to resource, esp. cow or wheat, or the get on a river or on the coast.

	14-11-2002 04:52									#12
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Understand that there is a big difference between 1 move and 2 moves. Two moves is very dangerous at all but the lowest levels.

	15-11-2002 02:00									#13
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I always plop down straight away, build a warrior, build a settler, then have that one build a city where I choose.

	15-11-2002 03:04									#14
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Hmmm... i move the worker one square so to see if i find something nice. If i don't i build straight away with settler and next turn worker mines the square it moved to. This IS the optimal solution.

	15-11-2002 13:19									#15
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Cows are cool. It's a big shame that the smileys don't include cows.

Muuuu

	15-11-2002 13:30									#16
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The last time I wondered around to much i plopped right down a few Squares from a Barbarian camp ( just plain bad luck)
Normaly I travel a few spaces to look around 1st

	15-11-2002 20:41									#17
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i move one step maximal but i must admit when i don't like the land after exploring a bit i will start a new game

	15-11-2002 21:20									#18
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I often move once at the beginning of the game.

	16-11-2002 00:12									#19
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Cracker,

I was just looking at your Opening Play Sequences article, which is excellent btw, and I noticed what I think is a mistake:

The most powerful square on your chart of terrain squares is listed as "bonus grassland cow" and is listed as providing 3 food, 2 shields base under despotism. I know of no such square. I know of cattle on grassland, which produces 3food, 1 shield and may be improved to generate 3/2, and I know of cattle on plains, which has 2food, 2 shields to start and may be irrigated to produce 3/2. But I've never seen a 3/2 square at the start (w/despotism penalty).

The only square in the game that I'm aware of that produces 3f, 2s without development is Game w/forest, and that is after you get our of despotism.

-Arrian

	16-11-2002 01:47									#20
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I've always built immediately whatever the location, thinking the loss of a turn is too costly. But now, having read so many civ grandmasters saying there's an advantage in spending a turn to find a better location, I'm going to reconsider.

	16-11-2002 03:14									#21
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Arrian,

PM me with such concerns as I always try to take a look.

In this case, the cow or wheat on bonus grassland, the internal map generator will not do that but many of the mod makers and map makers are not very senesitive to being consistent with this issue.

Firaxis designed the game in such a way that the bonus resources are placed indepedently of the bonus grassland squares so when someone uses the editor that can create this circumstance.

The table emphasizes that you will rarely if ever see the cow on bonus grassland but it is in the table for the sake of thoroughness since it is not impossible.

There are a number of other exploits like this one, but most people will never see them in their legitimate games.

	16-11-2002 03:18									#22
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Puny Celt,

Do not misinterpret the comments from users as advice from grand masters.

In most cases, it is not to your advantage to wander the settler around for even one turn. 9 out of 10 times you will end up worse off or just break even plus you will loose a turn.

There are a number of big picture issues to consider and the article I posted above discusses some of them.

Good luck,

	18-11-2002 18:54									#23
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Allow a one square move, no more. If you move more than that you will fall behind the A I in cities and is unacceptable in games at regent or higher. If you can move onto a river or coast sqare or are on a bonus square then a 1 tile move is acceptable, otherwise build the city at the starting location. If a start is REALLY bad then a new game is in order (for you civfanatics, an example of this is CG's challenge)

	18-11-2002 20:02									#24
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Are the first moves really that important? Normally I win over the AI bacause of superior long-term strategy, not because of superior micro-managing during the first turns.

I usually settles the first or second turn anyway but that's mostly bacause I want to get the game starting ASAP.

	18-11-2002 20:42									#25
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Bongo:

The first moves of the game are in fact the single most important period of the game. It plays a huge part in expansion, research, and overall game play. If you have not done so I highly suggest you read Cracker's article on opening play. Although dry, it is an invaluable source of information for improving play, especially when in a despotic government.

It is the first moves that allow you to begin to develop a long term strategy. If your foundation is shaky, how stable will your house be?

	19-11-2002 00:20									#26
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I will wander up to 5 turns if I think it likely to find a hill with gold, on a river. Seems complicated, but if I start on a bonus square, of course I'm going to move. If I happen to have run into such a tile, with either my settler, worker (who often goes the opposite way), or scout, then I will grab it. If not, the 1 or 2 turn move is all. Starting on this type of square, even at a 5 turn deficit, is usually an easy win. I can get 5 beakers and +1 gpt at 90% science by starting on this square, which REALLY aids my style.

However, I will be more likely to just plop down on the first square if I'm not on a bonus, unless a river is in sight. I know conventional wisdom is that such a move puts you in a major hole, but I just don't agree with that as I've never had a problem overcoming such a deficit.

	19-11-2002 01:33									#27
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metalhead what level are you able to move 5 turns?

	19-11-2002 04:33									#28
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Bet it is one of these:

1. settler
2. civ starting distance between civs increased
3. playing island worlds

== PF

	19-11-2002 05:04									#29
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Metalhead:

Are you playing Chieftain or Warlord? You might, just possibly could, get away with this 'strategy' on Regent, but you would be working from a hole. On Monarch and above and moving 5 turns you are playing with fire.

Also, how many civ's are you playing against?

	19-11-2002 13:45									#30
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Mad Bomber: I've read Cracker's article, a bit dry but useful. However I find that my early moves are, if not optimal, better than the AI's.

I guess I've had the impression that the early moves are not important simply because I use to get those moves right anyway.