13-11-2002 21:06									#1
	War Academy:German objectives Remove this text

Just what are our military objectives in a campaign against Otto?

Actually, they are hard to state military terms, but relatively easy to describe as overall econo-warfare strategic objectives.

What we really want to do is make certain that Germany ceases to be a tech leader. We really don't care if we capture any cities, but we probably will get one or two no matter how we carve this turkey.

Ok, so how do we do this while suffering minimal pain unto ourselves? We pillage! Remember General Sherman, from the Civil war and his imfamous march across Georgia! Such brilliance should be emulated.

We will soon have Khufu's grand Cavalry Army. Past experience with AI's indicate that they are intimidated by stacks, intimidated by Armies, and are absolutely stymied by a stack covered by an Army.

The combination of an Army cover, a few independent Cavalry to take out any snipers, a handfull of explorers, and some defenders for rear guard can do some serious pillaging.

Assuming level ground, such a stack can safely cut a 3 tile wide swath of destruction across the landscape.

From the stack starting place, (assumed to be on our border) each turn

Cavalry as required evict hostiles from the pillaging targets and movement paths below and retreat to future stack location.

2 explorers move to n,nw and pillage 1 for rail 1 for road etc then retreat se (future stack location)

2 explorers move n,n and pillage 1 for rail and 1 for road etc then retreat s (future stack location)

2 explorers move n,ne and pillage 1 for rail and 1 for road etc then retreat sw (future stack location)

remaining stack less any defenders to be left for rear gard advance n


so after each turn there is:

1 tile deep by 3 wide baren kill zone in front of and surrounding the stack.

All stack re-formed and under the watchful protection of Khufu's grand army.

rinse, repeat.

In our actual case we will want for the first turn only, the stack to advance 3 but not pillage. A second larger stack that contains a few backup explorers, our main bombard force, (that's why it's larger) some Cavalry for sniper control, and a suitable number of defenders actually does the first 2 rows of pillaging while the bombard force advances under cover.

It will not be many turns until Berlin has been forcibly segregated from all resources and the bombard force is in range. We may actually have to sacrifice 3 explorers when enveloping Berlin as the hypothetical next stack location will be the city itself which we do not want to attack until the bombard force as worked its will.

Berlin is on level ground and assuming 4 riflemen, 20 to 25 Cannon or 15 to 20 Artillery is indicated. Nothing wrong with overstacking here, the target just downsizes faster. If infantry is anticipated, double the bombard estimate above. This bombard level should strip the hit points and get one or two buildings or pop points each turn. Keep bombarding (but not attacking) until as a minimum the barracks, library, university, and a half dozen pop points or so are destroyed. Then advance the bombard force to the next prepared city.

Once the Grand Army has isolated Berlin it continues to Pillage it's way towards Leipzig (next bombard target)and eventually all over the Reich. One last thing, somewhere along the way Khufu's Grand Army needs to kill something to obtain the requisite victory condition for the Heroic Epic.

Populate the stack with a mixture of regular (if we have any), Vets and Elites. Use them in reverse order. That is the regulars get the toughies. They either upgrade or die. The Vets get fair shots, and our precious Elites get maximum chance for Victory and GL formation.

I know it is harsh, but in RL you either come home from your first major campaign a Vet, or in a body bag.

Ok. You now have my thoughts on a reasonably efficient way to achieve our true strategic economic warfare objectives in Germany. Yes, this method is cruel, but Otto deserves it.

We remember Paris.

	14-11-2002 05:55									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Shamless ***BUMP***

This is most likely our next "blood meal"
So I ask, why no comments? Have I gone over the line here?

Just remember, there are no "style points" in warefare.

	14-11-2002 06:12									#3
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I agree with the general idea (I like pillaging with Impis); I would only check at the beginning if there is a big stack somewhere heading for our land.

	14-11-2002 10:01									#4
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I like the approach, though I would consider whether we truly want to occupy cities or just destroy them and pillage the surroundings. Personally I would take the southern cities and then pillage the area around berlin and if possible seize it(to either raze,lower pop to nothing, or to occupy). We could also take the western cities and give them to the aztecs or raze. I think only 5-10 cannon would be enough to take berlin. Yes we will take loses but the miracle of retreat is that we will lose less troops than we lose battles. The lose of cities + the devestation from pillaging will reduce germany to a non player.
Aggie

	14-11-2002 21:08									#5
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I'd like us to capture rather than raze the German cities with unexpired Great Wonders and keep those for ourselves if possible, particlarly the science boosting wonders.

	14-11-2002 21:35									#6
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I did not envision EVER taking Berlin. The thought of that city smoking and buuuuuuurning gives me a rush.

recon the city and take out all defenders but one. The AI will rushbuild or draft another defender instead of fixing it's buildings.

next turn recon and whack as required

After we can confirm that they have drafted several times, we can consider sueing for peace.

They will have to have so many entertainers to quell the "cruel oppression" that their observatory won't be worth spit.

...and the flames spread.

	14-11-2002 22:25									#7
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We're looking for long-term incapacitation here. We want to make sure that Germany is not the first to get modern techs as well. Even following this almost entirely excellent plan, their cities will eventually rebuild. Raze and pillage yes, but capture some cities as well. For example, I want the Berliners grovelling at our feet for centuries.

	15-11-2002 02:13									#8
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quote: We're looking for long-term incapacitation here. We want to make sure that Germany is not the first to get modern techs as well. Even following this almost entirely excellent plan, their cities will eventually rebuild. Raze and pillage yes, but capture some cities as well. For example, I want the Berliners grovelling at our feet for centuries.

Berlin will be exceedingly hard to keep.
Lots of culture
(soon to be) was Capitol
Next Reichstag location will be nearby.

We have a better chance at keeping
...Cologne
...Hanover
...Frankfurt
...Hamburg
...Stuttgart
Not sure we want all of these but...

especially if we raze
Berlin
Leipzig
Nuremberg

which puts the next Reichstag in Heidelberg

Remember the purpose of the 'objectives' threads is to develop a consensus on what the mission should be. I think we are almost there, but keep those comments flowing. Believe me when I say these discussions really help.

I will probably be silent on this thread for a while. But never fear I will be lurking (and drafting) the Mission Statement thread.

Ssgt roadcage (retired)

	15-11-2002 02:54									#9
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Alright then. What we should aim for in selecting cities to keep or raze is to make sure any bits and pieces of Germany are completely severed by our territory.

	15-11-2002 03:27									#10
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Be sure to invite the whole world into the party to destroy Germany. Any cities our allies take away from Germany is fine.

Do the Germans have unexpired Wonders in any city besides Berlin?

The only cities that are in really good city sites are Berlin & Leipzing. But if others have unexpired Great Wonders keep them as well.

To ensure we can keep Berlin & Leipzing, the Germans also need to be removed from.

1. Hamburg
2. Stuggart
3. Nuremburg
4. Frankfurt

(Either via razing or conversion into workers if no unexpired great wonder present.)

If the goal shifts towards complete conquest, then here's then here's what to do with the rest:

1. Brennen : Keep
2. Heidleburg : Keep
3. Hannover : Get rid of (if no wonder present)
4. Konigsberg: Get rid of (if no wonder present)
5. Cologne : Keep

	26-11-2002 10:54									#11
	Limited War Objectives Get a bigger avatar today!

We want to knock Germany down to size, but we should keep them for future trade.

The Cities that we should take should be the following:

Berlin - Science Wonder - Taking it will reduce the High Culture from that City when compared to other. Cut off from rest of Germany and take it last. FP Centric - Low Corruption

Hamburg - Close to current border & close to Berlin. We'll hopefully get atleast a Marketplace as part of the city, maybe some other items. First Objective - Reduce to size 2 via Starvation & worker farming. FP Centric - Low Corruption

Stuttgart - Closest city to Berlin - We'll want to move this city south by one tile. Either starve to 2 and Worker Farm it to death or have a settler ready to build new City the same turn as it's Razed. This one would be hard to keep with waiting to take Berlin for the last, so it should be Razed. New City - FP Centric - Low Corruption. FP Centric - Low Corruption

Frankfurt - On Mountain chain, possible resources for future - Starve to size 2 and Keep it. Should get a Marketplace. FP Centric - Low Corruption

Hannover - On Mountain Chain, also with possible future Resources. Starve to 2 and Keep it. Should also get a Marketplace. Can put Cultural Pressure on other side of Former American Lands. FP Centric - Low Corruption.

Cologne - On Mountain Chain, also with possible future Resources. Starve to 2 and Keep it. Should also get a Marketplace. More cultural Pressure on on other side of Former American Lands. Palace Centric - Will have High Corruption until a Courthouse is built.

Other German Cities:

Konigsburg - Bombard to reduce pop & Improvements. We don't really want it. Raze it and let Germany place a new city.

Leipzig - Probible place of new German Gov't after Berlin is taken. Either cut it off or Raze it to remove Cultural Pressure in New Aquizations before War's end. We might want this, but it would effect future Zulu Plans with corruption at a later date.

Nuremburg - Raze or Bombard - Don 't want it, let Otto Keep it.


We should keep ourselves to only the 6 cities that are towards the top. Remember, we will most likely have more than one Civ that we will have to contend with on this war. We need to look at working on England next (as soon as possible after the German Campain) and shouldn't stretch our Resources too thinly.

E_T

	26-11-2002 11:25									#12
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I fully feel that any further military action should be conquest. What we do with the defeated cities does not matter. Raze them, starve them what ever. Buy this stage of the game, every AI city probably has too much culture history (50% of the culture flip formula) and is too far away from our capital (and too close to their own) for us to keep.

If we were to go for a limited campaign, I would say try to eliminate the threat of rubber in German hands. Remember, no rubber, no Tanks (Panzers), Modern Armor or Infantry. If this happens, then who cares how fast they research things. They will be doomed.

	26-11-2002 14:54									#13
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IMHO we should turn the German cities into worker farms. They'll produce German workers for us (aka slaves), which unfortunately work half us fast as our native workers but don't cost maintenance.
Anyway, I suggest that we build workers in the cities that we conquer until all the German population in the cities but one is gone. Undoubtedly we'd want to relocate some cities so we can use this opportunity to abandon the cities that we want to move.

	26-11-2002 19:07									#14
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"Wipe them out. All of them."

	26-11-2002 20:13									#15
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Nice quote UnOrthO.

I can't view the save, but how about we aim to destroy or capture their top three cities, take all their lux/resource land and Wonders? That sounds like a way of keeping them down, whilst giving US a boost as well.

	26-11-2002 20:20									#16
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I'd prefer wiping out as much of Germany as possible prior to them getting Infentry or 20 turns of war elapses, whichever comes first.

I'm in agreement with E_T on what to do with the top 6 cities.

Leaving Germany around leaves the possibility of them buying Oil and/or Rubber on the open market. Since the cost of resources is based in part on the number of cities you have, the price would be affordable for a downsized Germany.