13-11-2002 22:34									#1
	The Case For The Ottomans Enter the AD-FREE zone

Okay, now that we have our own forum, we got biznas to take care of.

There are a few things that must be kept in mind while playing the Ottomans I've found.

First, the Siphai is a beast. We get some of those, one civ is going down, probably more.

But, they're expensive. Sooo...
That's where industrious workers come in. They allow us to expand our infrastructre to insane levels, allowing us to build up massive amounts of cash and production capability in our cities, which will be necassary to build and afford them.

However, even with that advantage, they're still more expensive than what is practical, so having a large force of mounted troops to upgrade to Sihpais will be our best bet at gaining dominance.

Therefore, our priorities should be:
Finding horses (getting the wheel)
Building Infrastructure
Building some horsemen/knights
Expanding up to the time when we get Siphais, making our mounted troops more experienced and powerful (but avoiding losses, for they are expensive)

	14-11-2002 04:26									#2
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I agree that finding, and protecting, our horses are very important. I have found in MP games that resource denial is very powerful and can turn the tide of a war if you don't protect them (See my resource denial thread).

I agree with building infrastructure, but balance it with the ability to defend ourselves at all times. Even with industrious workers, lets not develop terrain we can't adequately defend. There's nothing worse, other than losing a city) than getting your terrain pillaged and workers captured, especially early in the game.

A stock of horsemen/knights is important, I agree. though we may need swords/archers early on if we dont get good luck in the resource draw.

I agree with everything else.

	14-11-2002 23:13									#3
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I agree, except I think we should research iron working first.

	15-11-2002 00:39									#4
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I disagree.

Mounted troops will be the staple of our military, they must be our priority.

	15-11-2002 01:48									#5
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Yes, both are important, but I think that given that we start with BW, we need to take advantage of that. I say research IW then the wheel and grab the resources. If our neighbours have no iron, they will not be too likely to try attack our spearmen. Catapults and a mobile defense force will also be good ideas, in addition to an Expeditiary Force.

	15-11-2002 02:19									#6
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Normally I would agree with you, but horses will be so important to our county that if we find ourselves without them then ANOTHER civ and not us will hold the key to our fate, which is a situation we do NOT want to be in.

In other words, resource denial will be important, but possessing horses will be vital to our survival. Holding our own fate is more important than holding someone else's.

Iron Working costs six, while the Wheel is only four. That extra 1/3 may end up being crucial.

Besides, our industrious workers will allow us the benefit of extra early commerce, allowing us to get the Wheel out of the way even faster.

	15-11-2002 06:15									#7
	Veni Vidi Vici - Horses are your best friend Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I agree horses are important for the Ottos (ottoman sounds like they should be run by Otto von Bismarck the german leader, is that why you like them so much trip? )

But in my mod game, I had discovered horseriding, but couldn't reach any horse resources for many decades afterwards.. so we shouldn't rely on the 'horsey' strategy if we have none of the buggers around.

It will be a long time before we can build Sipahis though,
(attack 8,3,3) and if we can upgrade tothem, we must remember elite units upgrade to veterans only .. maybe Leonardos workshop will be useful, but upgrading is nice.

I think we should get Iron working after The wheel, it looks like Iron is even more important in PTW, the mediaval infantry need it (attack 4, def 2)
and upgradeable swordsmen sound even better.

Iron also helps our cavalry army, as we can build lovely Knights with horses and iron.

I think the other teams will try to stop us getting Horses..

I do like cavalry, and maybe we shuld go straight for horseback riding.. Horsemen may be our best defence against Celtic Swords and other UU's, Warrior code is very useful too - it gets us closer to Monarchy which Is vital to get as soon as we can.

We start with Masonry as well as Bronze working, which is good to get us Closer to construction (good for aquaducts and fortresses, great walls good for Industrious GA's too) and currency(money is vital, and it helps happiness).

Libaries are important to us too, we need Literacy as soon as we can.. We get 50% librarie cost as Ottoman
so we get lots of culture as well as science increase.
GREAT LIBRARY is a powerful Wonder, with lots of culture and would let us not worry about science for a while- need it for a Scientific GA too.

	15-11-2002 06:26									#8
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Hmmm....I agree and yet disagree....

First, in the early days, we will need many units besides horsemen. I always end up building loads of archers to do my initial dirty work. Later, it's horsemen and swordsmen. By the time I get to the Sepahi, my nearest neighbors should already be on the ropes, and the Sepahi are just what I need to put them out of their misery.

Horses are important, but they should only be a priority early on as far as securing that resource.

Finally, Sepahi will finish many of our wars, and do require a huge infrastructure to build and support.

	15-11-2002 06:50									#9
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We need to be realistic about what we need in the first 2 millenium BC's, so maybe we shouldn't go for Libraries just yet, but we Should think about going for Ceremonial burial soon, Temples are great , allowing a big population (needed to build armies and make settler expansion) We need the Culture to control land and Road links.
It could be an option to Go for construction early and Use Colliseums to create culture.. but this will take centuries.

We must look at what resources appear on what land squares before we can use the resource.. If we want iron we should control mountains/hills , If we want horses (yes) we should settle plains and grasslands early. - You may not get the resources, but you will have good bases to fight for. them.
This is more important for predicting where our needed saltpetre is to be found though its too rare really(deserts, hills, mountains)

Spain needs horses for its Conquistadors too, (3.2.2 all terrain as road, horses) Another civ I think would be good, this would be a good unit to scout the map, as humans won't share their maps lightly I fear.
I do like the pillaging tactic which explorers are good at.
Conq's bad side is they're expensive.

	15-11-2002 07:07									#10
	Spain? culture? Put an end to popups!

(double post)

I had a message: could not sendmessage, cannot send messages less than 30 seconds (minutes?) apart.
- thats a new thing

Last edited by Admiral PJ on 15-11-2002 at 07:13

	15-11-2002 07:41									#11
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What civ?:

Carthagians look great.. Numidean mercenaries-(2.3.1 with bronze working!)
Industrious and Commercial !

Ottomans do look nice, although science isn't that powerful a ability i think, better than expansion at least.

The mongols look nice, if they do have All terrain as road on their 4.2.2 knights.(no iron needed)

	15-11-2002 10:32									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Iron Working costs six, while the Wheel is only four. That extra 1/3 may end up being crucial.

I believe this to be irrelevant. I imagine we'll take forty turns either way.

	15-11-2002 12:58									#13
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We must try to secure the resources needed for the Sephai. These guys would be a huge help and a huge boost to our military might. Ottomans look great from what I've heard (haven't had a chance to play as PTW only comes out here on the 22nd) as these UU's will be fighting largely against normal units and not other UU's, it's a good place for them to be in.

	15-11-2002 17:22									#14
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Ancient era: Iron and Horses//Will need lots of horses and swordsmen to stave off invaders and acquire resources. Go for high pop areas and potential future resource sites.

Medieval era: Saltpeter//Get Sepahi late, again we will need many knights, pikemen, and Medieval Infantry to fend off invaders and protect resources. We will need a strong navy to protect coastal cities and resources.

Industrial era: Coal and Oil//Our Sepahi are still good until infantry come out to play...then it gets rough for the Sepahi, on average you'll loose two for each infantry unit. We will need to think heavily about phasing these out in favor of the tank to come late in the Industrial era. We will need to reinforce our strategy with cannons, artillery, musketmen, riflemen, infantry. We will need a strong navy to protect coastal cities and resources.

Modern era: Aluminum and Uranium//The age of the Sepahi is over...now, we'll need to devote our time to defenses, air superiority, bombers, etc...This era isn't about aggression, but defense.

	22-11-2002 02:05									#15
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I think in multiplayer, fast units are a must! So build lots of horsemen, and do not build archers and stuff.

	22-11-2002 03:53									#16
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Well, if you ask me, I highly doubt that we should even choose Ottomans... Glory of war is intentionally going for a early UU civ for a reason, but heres my advice.

Ancient era. - I actually agree with Trip. Being able to see horse ASAP would be quite important. That way if we don't have any within us, we can quickly expand toward whereever it does. quick unit also means being able to extend you empire a little more without worrying about logistics.

We gotta expand.

I also suggest we do some serious researching. On SP games on high diffculty, you can rely on AIs to trade techs while affording to lower your research priority. However if there is going to be no AI (no "predictable" trading partner) then we will be faced with trading with human player. They may be more reasonable in some aspects, but humans can also decide to hold off the tech all by himself. And also they way I see it, most of the human player won't focus too much in tech in ancient era. We could possibly be a tech salesman and make some good profit. We gotta abuse our sicentific trait of building quicker sci building as much as we can.

By Medieval era, we definitely should be the leading in science. No one has sci trait (as far as I know. Legoland is still indecisive) so with one free tech and library and university available to us, there shouldnt be any reason why we shouldn't be #1 in sci.

I say skip chivary and go straight to mil tradition. Making use of our advantage by having it ASAP is IMO the best option. we might be able to trade it from another player but humans will prolly be aware of how important this tech is, so if we can go straight for mil tradition.... (im being optimistic)

I think we can really do some damage in mid industrial era if we make it with strong cohesive empire. Generally, war wise its sleeper period where defense is more practised and even when infantry shows up, with stat of 8 VS 10... we could probably launch many succesive campaign.

PS. Im hoping we can launch a GA thru Great library + Pyramid combo. Some may think that might be lil early but my issue is HAVING those two wonders more than really launching a GA. w/ GL, we could afford to tone down research and allocate resource into more treasury. but most likely other non sci human civs will be targetting for this wonder as well

Last edited by Zero on 22-11-2002 at 04:00

	22-11-2002 04:27									#17
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As far as wonders go, I say hit pyramids first, then shoot for the Great Library. I also like getting the Colossus, but that is a secondary wonder with good cumulative benefits.

All of Calc's points are valid. I would like to add that there will be some AI around, it might be advantageous to find them ASAP. For tech early on, and for better targets later.

	22-11-2002 05:40									#18
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Okay, priorities:

- Horses (and making use of them)

- Infrastructure to strengthen our country as a whole (and to assist with building wonders)

- Tech lead (strong tech budget and libraries)

- Getting to new form of government (Monarchy is ideal, since we'll be going to war, and republic can be REALLY annoying... quick strikes may not work so well against humans, especially when they know the enemy has a Republican government [drag out the war until the republics have to surrender])

- Military Tradition (once we get this, we'll be nearly invincible)

	23-11-2002 20:26									#19
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I agree that going to Republic in MP is much trickier Because wars can drag out much longer against human opponents. As far as skipping knights, It may not be practical if we are at war in early middle ages, although we could get by with med. infantry. But the problem with that idea is that they dont upgrade to our UU. This means keeping a lot of horsemen around that really arent that much help in any war in this time period. (I dont want to attack knights with horsemen). Of course, If we dont have iron for some reason, the skip it regardless.

	23-11-2002 23:27									#20
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I was being optimistic... I know the reality is far more worse and we may have to dive into chivary if necessary.

Only team that is showing public war face as of now is GoW. Others are putting genuine interest in building good relations... we'll see how the game goes.. it's too early.

Watch out for religious civ when determining wether we can put their government at unrest. GoW is mil/rel, meaning they will be far more impervious to our dragging the war tactic, That goes with Roleplay team as well.

	24-11-2002 01:28									#21
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GoW is built for war.
We'll be able to hold them off if need be, and find an ally to crush them. However, I must reiterate, Republic will be very detrimental to us... we MUST maintain a form of government that isn't hurt by war weariness since we aren't a religous civ.

Knights will probably be a big advantage to us. There ought to be 3 cycles of war that we fight. 1st: once we get horsemen. 2nd: once we get knights. 3rd: once we get our Siphais. Each cycle we'll strengthen our empire, and give our forces an increasing amount of experience.

	24-11-2002 05:29									#22
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Im thinking of not being too aggressive early if we have enough room to expand w/o confrontation. War with horsemen can be a bit risky considering we are agst the celts and carthage

	24-11-2002 05:38									#23
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Of course everything will depend on the situation.

There's some quote that says something like "having a static plan is worse than having no plan at all". Basically, we need to have some sort of strategy, but make it flexible enough to adapt to any situation that may arise.

Facing the Celts with 5 horsemen in 400 BC is a baaaad idea. However, if we find a settler in a goody hut, we're stuck in the middle of the jungle, we find horses and we find ourselves next to Legoland... well, then I think we all know what happens next.

I do believe that weakening our neighbors and giving our mounted troops some experience will be vital, when the real wars come around later on.