14-11-2002 02:43									#1
	Zone of Control Enter the AD-FREE zone

An easy way to make this attribute valuable would be to have units take their shot as soon as an enemy enters one of the ZOC tiles, not when they cross from one tile to another.

This would also make coastal fortresses (which also work like units with ZOC) more useful, since ships (except battleships) would have to take fortress fire before they can bombard a city with such a building).

What do you think?

	14-11-2002 03:10									#2
	Remove this text

I think, if it was set up like this, there should be the chance of failure on the part of the unit that is firing a 50/50 chance at failure. Because what about the units coming to attack you that maybe don't quite get there? There are entering your zone of control, but they are not trying to sneak by.

	14-11-2002 03:15									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser I think, if it was set up like this, there should be the chance of failure on the part of the unit that is firing a 50/50 chance at failure. Because what about the units coming to attack you that maybe don't quite get there? There are entering your zone of control, but they are not trying to sneak by.

There is already a chance of failure. I believe the unit with the ZOC does 1HP damage [100*A/(A+D)] percent of the time, where A is its attack strength and D is the defense strength of the unit in motion.

	14-11-2002 03:30									#4
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I find the current ZOC system absolutely useless. The tweak would improve it som, but not enough to where i'd use it I think. That 1 point of damage simply is worth it. Now if the old Civ2 way was back, i'd start building fortresses again and making units that had ZOC.

	14-11-2002 04:55									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by ChaotikVisions I find the current ZOC system absolutely useless. The tweak would improve it som, but not enough to where i'd use it I think. That 1 point of damage simply is worth it. Now if the old Civ2 way was back, i'd start building fortresses again and making units that had ZOC.

you dont build cavs or tanks?

anyway, i think the current zoc is good enough as it is, but i still demand the banana option

	14-11-2002 17:53									#6
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I've been able to utilize ZOC on land to pretty good effect. But Coastal Fortresses??? They're useless. They definitely need a chance to fire immediately when ships enter their ZOC.

	14-11-2002 19:04									#7
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Yeah, fortresses were more useful with a civ2 ZOC. SMAC had it too. I don't mind the civ3 way, but it's useless for coastal fortreses. I wouldn't mind at all if the civ2 way came back. I have a lot more startegies I can use with that system then with the current system.

	14-11-2002 23:30									#8
	Not the change I would hope for... Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I would like to keep how ZOC is activated the way it is. What I want is to make the potential effects of it more powerful:

Double the likelihood of taking damage when moving through a ZOC, and ...

Not limited to just 1 HP removed! Whole unit may be destroyed by moving through a ZOC.

--
This would make it truly hazardous to go through a ZOC if the projecting unit was of a contemporary tech.

Regarding Coastal Fortresses, I DEFINITELY agree that an enemy vessel coming adjacent should activate it.

	15-11-2002 04:34									#9
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I agree that enemy ships approaching a coastal fortress should get fired upon before attacking...

And how about this (as an alternative to the Civ2 system of ZOC): It seems to me that ZOC is suppose to represent that one army can't pass a nearby army without engaging it (should the defender wish to intervene)... giving them a "Free shot" does not at all account for this.

What if, instead, an army trying to march past a defending army gets to take that step, but then loses all of its remaining moves? The next turn, the defender has the opportunity of engaging that army, but perhaps at the expense of opening a hole in their border from the other side?

I really did enjoy the "zone defense" aspect of Civ2...

	15-11-2002 06:28									#10
	Put an end to popups!

I edited Coastal Fortess to make vet units (removing it from Harbour) so that it has some use now. Unfortunately it seems that the AI is no longer building naval units anymore, so I may have to change it back.

	15-11-2002 08:56									#11
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Anyone remember how Colonization dealt with the issue? "French Frigate slowed by the presence of Spanish Fortress" turn passes, fortress opens fire...."Our frigate is damaged, and has been returned to New Rochelle."

	15-11-2002 09:44									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by ChaotikVisions I find the current ZOC system absolutely useless. The tweak would improve it som, but not enough to where i'd use it I think. That 1 point of damage simply is worth it. Now if the old Civ2 way was back, i'd start building fortresses again and making units that had ZOC.

Bingo.

	15-11-2002 14:00									#13
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I would say that a unit should be able to take its ZOC shot the moment that an enemy unit enters any adjacent tile--this would be like the way that bombard units take one shot at any enemy units attacking their square, only it is projected outward to a one-square radius.

	15-11-2002 19:33									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

City walls also have the effect of creating a ZoC. At least I saw some spearmen stabbing at passing enemy units.

	16-11-2002 01:00									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

i didn't like the civ2 ZOC because movement in the enemy land was nearly impossible.
however, it disturbs me that now (in civ3) you can move past fortresses while getting just a lousy shot (which doesn't always work).
and for defense it's to tedious to build fortresses on every single tile along a line.

i'd prefer something like a artificial barrier. something which slows down enemy forces and even blocks wheeled units. then the enemy has to go through the fortress and not just past it.
the barrier can only be destroyed if there isn't any defence in a tile nearby.

or a simpler version:
bring back civ2-ZOC for fortified units only in fortresses.

	16-11-2002 02:49									#16
	Remove this text

Civ2 style for fortresses! Increases value of fortresses a great deal, and prevents you from having to build on every border tile.

Now enemies have to take out your fortresses or move around them... they can't just slide between them which makes little sense.

	16-11-2002 07:33									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

coastal fortress also bombards incoming units into city sqaure such as marines so its not just a naval artillery that ZOC bombs passing ships.

just wanted to justify existence of coastal fortress

	16-11-2002 07:39									#18
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf i didn't like the civ2 ZOC because movement in the enemy land was nearly impossible. however, it disturbs me that now (in civ3) you can move past fortresses while getting just a lousy shot (which doesn't always work). and for defense it's to tedious to build fortresses on every single tile along a line. i'd prefer something like a artificial barrier. something which slows down enemy forces and even blocks wheeled units. then the enemy has to go through the fortress and not just past it. the barrier can only be destroyed if there isn't any defence in a tile nearby.

wat u said are ALL in the game
-mountains slow down enemies.
-your territory slows enemy (by not being able to use the road)
-Wheeled unit cannot enter mountain w/o road

Ah all you spoke of.. in the game!

And your not supposed to build a single line of defense. Civ3 got rid of all unit on square destroyed feature so that they can toss away the one line wonder defense.

	16-11-2002 09:42									#19
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All I can say about ZOC is that I really hated it in Civ2 and was very glad to learn it was basically gone.

	16-11-2002 14:36									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II wat u said are ALL in the game -mountains slow down enemies. -your territory slows enemy (by not being able to use the road) -Wheeled unit cannot enter mountain w/o road

- mountains aren't always around your border.
- if this wouldn't happen, borders would be unusable
- mountains don't make infantries slower. 1 tile per turn, independent of the terrain.

another problem if you build your line along a mountain range: if the enemy gets between your fortresses, he's got 100% defence bonus, so it's suicide to attack the invaders (except if you've got enough artillery)

quote: And your not supposed to build a single line of defense. Civ3 got rid of all unit on square destroyed feature so that they can toss away the one line wonder defense.

but iirc a single line of defense is historically very accurate - at least before effective shelling and bombing. think of the maginot-line (which wasn't penetrated. the french had forgotten to cover belgium too).

if you've got a big empire, you'll want to defend the entry-points and not every single spot of your country.

what i said in the first part of the post you quoted is something that has the same effect as mountains or jungles, but is artificial and can be built on grassland, etc. it has higher movement costs, but no extra defense value.

you didn't quote my second part of the post:

quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf or a simpler version: bring back civ2-ZOC for fortified units only in fortresses.

the same as what fosse said more elegantly one post later

	16-11-2002 14:53									#21
	Remove this text

Option ín editor to set how ZOC would work would be the best thing, this way every player will be happy.