03-12-2002 00:55									#31
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I maintain that BW should be our first research priority.

First off, spearmen will ensure safety from barbarians.

Second, spearmen greatly reduce the risk of being overwhelmed by archers.

Third, BW allows construction of the Colossus (who knows if we will even have a spot to build it, and if so, if the team will want to, which is why I listed it third).

On the other hand, if we do the wheel and are lucky enough to have easy access to horses we could work with a warrior/war chariot force. My worry about this is that we would still lack a 2-defense unit, and that it relies on hooking up horses quickly, which may or may not be an option.

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 01:02									#32
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Arrian, cross-posted with you in the Turn 2 thread.

I'm OK with either choice. We will probably end up researching them #1 and #2. The only thing I can add is the reduced cost of BW each time we meet another civ that already has it (very likely), and the extra trade from working a horse tile.

	03-12-2002 01:05									#33
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Regarding barbarians and spearmen: in Monarch we get a 100% bonus against barbarians. Backed up by fortification (+25%) I think we can defend ourselves well against the barbarian conscripts without spearmen.
Regarding War Chariots: I think it's absolutely granted, but I'm just making sure so that we don't have any awkward misunderstandings later on... we are going to try to avoid winning a battle against a non-barbarian unit with the war chariots that we'll build (if we get horses), right? 'Cause if we're not careful we may trigger an early GA.

	03-12-2002 01:54									#34
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That is a concern I have too, Shiber. I have experienced the early (despotic) GA and I hate it. I once made the mistake of taking an ultra-early leader (generated by a warrior) and making him the Pyramids when I had 2 cities. That was submoronic.

Anyway, BW & the Wheel are both important to us. Here is another thing to consider, though:

What if we're alone? In that case we don't need either tech, but at least we can take a shot at the Colossus if we go BW.

On the other hand, if we're not alone we could decide to continue on to IW, and attempt a sword rush on someone. That requires several things, of course, but offers a potentially huge payoff. 2 spears + 3-4 swords could devastate another civ early on.

alexman, check the turn 2 thread again... I've been workin' hard (hardly workin').

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 03:41									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Regarding barbarians and spearmen: in Monarch we get a 100% bonus against barbarians. Backed up by fortification (+25%) I think we can defend ourselves well against the barbarian conscripts without spearmen. Regarding War Chariots: I think it's absolutely granted, but I'm just making sure so that we don't have any awkward misunderstandings later on... we are going to try to avoid winning a battle against a non-barbarian unit with the war chariots that we'll build (if we get horses), right? 'Cause if we're not careful we may trigger an early GA.

I don't like the idea of an early GA, but if we get caught in a fight before we really want one (either because we're attacked or because that's the only way to get needed elbow room), I think we're better off using the combination of a GA and a good early UU to give us a (hopefully) decisive advantage. The worst thing that can happen to us is to get in a long, drawn-out, indecisive slugging match while the other civs pull ahead.

Nathan

	03-12-2002 03:44									#36
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I agree with Nathan on this one. We should try and avoid triggering our GA in despotism, but we shouldn't be afraid to use it if we need to. I'd rather win an early war and use up our GA than fight a tough stalemate and save it for later. If we get set back we may never have a chance to recover.

	03-12-2002 04:18									#37
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Very good discussion here.

One point. Whoever we are next to are likely to start researching BW. We will most likely get it first (love furs on river). If we offer them BW when they are near completing it, they are likely to decline.

However, if we offer to trade TW, we can likely get one of their starting techs on a straight up trade.

Additional point. Civs who cooperate on research often pull ahead from the others. To do so, it would be best to research different paths, and be near one of the builder civs (I consider RP to be a builder).

The best situation is one where we make contact early with the most civs. Before the others reach each other, we may be able to secure a tech lead by aggressive trading. If GoW comes late to this game, they will lag far behind (all the other civs will already have most of their trading tokens). If we come late to the table...

	03-12-2002 04:45									#38
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Under Despotism, any roaded tile along a river can match the gold our fur tiles bring in. We have a nice gold advantage over anyone who doesn't start along a river or whose best tiles are away from the river, but that's about it from a research perspective. (That, and at size three or higher, we have an edge over anyone who doesn't have a luxury hooked up.)

Nathan

	03-12-2002 05:27									#39
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My post was regarding a super quick archer rush of about 2 archers. Obviously a later rush of 4-6 archers with 1-2 spearmen would require a different defensive strategy.

	03-12-2002 05:39									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Randolph My post was regarding a super quick archer rush of about 2 archers. Obviously a later rush of 4-6 archers with 1-2 spearmen would require a different defensive strategy.

One strategy I've used in SP with China and Germany is what I call the "Archers Explore" opening. The idea is to start off building a barracks first thing and then crank out veteran archers in between settlers. The archers do the exploration job normally left to warriors, and when one sees a target, the others in the area start to converge. That could be devastating against a human opponent who doesn't do a pretty good job minding his defenses early, and one of my worst nightmares is GoW throwing that kind of attack at us and getting lucky (or not having a choice) in happening to send virtually their entire force our way.

	03-12-2002 06:40									#41
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay One strategy I've used in SP with China and Germany is what I call the "Archers Explore" opening. The idea is to start off building a barracks first thing and then crank out veteran archers in between settlers. The archers do the exploration job normally left to warriors, and when one sees a target, the others in the area start to converge. That could be devastating against a human opponent who doesn't do a pretty good job minding his defenses early, and one of my worst nightmares is GoW throwing that kind of attack at us and getting lucky (or not having a choice) in happening to send virtually their entire force our way.

That's my nightmare too... while I don;t think that GoW has the experience to pull this off, I'd rather be totally paranoid.

Again, I'd rather have a 2-attack "mobile defense" than Spearmen, but Arrian's right, I'm definitely betting on Horses given all the plains around EotS.

Don;t worry about the Colossus though... we can always pre-build a Palace.

	03-12-2002 06:45									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Don;t worry about the Colossus though... we can always pre-build a Palace.

And how many other civs will have the same idea? Wonder races could get quite interesting (and a bit risky) with humans competing with each other to time prebuilds.

	03-12-2002 06:58									#43
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True... I was really just focused on BW versus the Wheel, not the question of GW builds.

	03-12-2002 07:49									#44
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Nice discussion about the choice between The Wheel and Bronze Working. What I haven't been hearing is the argument that knowing the location of Horses on the map is a very important strategic advantage. If we set up a few cities around the Horse resources before the opponents do, we're in for a nice early-game. Another point is that, if another civ does decide to attack us with Archers, I'd be happier having WC for defense rather than Spearmen. Yes, we'd trigger a GA, but fluid defense is amazing, and our counter-attack would be brutal. However, I do agree that BW should be our second research choice.


Dominae

	03-12-2002 08:07									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Nice discussion about the choice between The Wheel and Bronze Working. What I haven't been hearing is the argument that knowing the location of Horses on the map is a very important strategic advantage. If we set up a few cities around the Horse resources before the opponents do, we're in for a nice early-game. Another point is that, if another civ does decide to attack us with Archers, I'd be happier having WC for defense rather than Spearmen. Yes, we'd trigger a GA, but fluid defense is amazing, and our counter-attack would be brutal. However, I do agree that BW should be our second research choice.

The catch is that it takes time to get access to the horses, especially if they aren't as handy as we're hoping. That creates a potential window of vulnerability. Further, if there are food bonus tiles around, I'd hate to pass them over in order to chase horses. On the other hand, I like the possibility of trading The Wheel enough to be willing to accept those drawbacks. And as long as a rabid warmonger doesn't have their heart set on hitting us before we're ready, I definitely like the prospects of a mobile defense.

	03-12-2002 08:19									#46
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True, we may not be able to access the Horses as fast as we would like, but with our scouting efforts we could at least be able to do so as quickly as possible, and position ourselves for (aggressive or peaceful) resource denial. However, I do agree that the "window" you're talking about could be a very real weakness if a civ decides that super early war is the way to go.

Is it just me, or is playing against humans WAY more challenging/interesting?


Dominae

	03-12-2002 08:31									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Is it just me, or is playing against humans WAY more challenging/interesting?

It certainly limits one's ability to assume that the opposition will or won't do certain things. There's a large "rock, scissors, paper" element in that an all-out militaristic start (hopefully) gets blunted by a balanced start (which can take advantage of distance to make up for the less dedicated militarism), a balanced start falls behind an almost pure builder start economically, and an almost pure builder start gets crushed if a rabid militarist comes after the civ. In terms of civs starting with similar strategies, builder or balanced starts come down to who has a better starting position and who plays better, while it would be quite possible for a warmonger to get crushed by another warmonger while too busy engaged in offensive operations.

The problem with planning the initial strategy is how to compete with Legoland in building while making sure Glory of War doesn't stomp us if they start nearby and, at the same time, preparing to do a little stomping of our own should it become convenient.

Nathan

	03-12-2002 09:25									#48
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Maybe I'm a simpleton... I see this many plains (and an immediate luxury), and I think irrigation and horses.

Whether we end up as builder or warmonger or warbuilder or buildmonger, our early choices are well defined.

	03-12-2002 09:52									#49
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I am reading a consensus for The Wheel as first choice, Bronze Working after that.

Correct me if I am wrong.

We should expect to receive Turn 2v2 in the wee hours this pm/am.

	03-12-2002 10:06									#50
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I am reading a consensus for The Wheel as first choice, Bronze Working after that. Correct me if I am wrong. We should expect to receive Turn 2v2 in the wee hours this pm/am.

I'm not quite 100% comfortable with the risk, but the potential payoff is great enough for me to view that as probably our best bet. (Of course what I'm really hoping for is that we can trade for Bronze Working, since it is more defensive than offensive.)

Nathan

	03-12-2002 10:07									#51
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Are we still in AP, and if so, will this be changed (sorry for not keeping up on the zounds of other threads)?


Dominae

	03-12-2002 10:28									#52
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No, we should not be in AP. The whole public forum is very adverse to that. Most would rather replay turns than allow AP to survive.

	03-12-2002 10:35									#53
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No more AP I think.
____________________

1) Either we are alone, in which case it's irrelevant (yeah, delay for MM, but acceptable).

2) We are next to a builder... until / if we attack, probably a good research partner.

3) We are next to a warmonger, and worst case is WCs versus Immortals.

	03-12-2002 10:39									#54
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I am reading a consensus for The Wheel as first choice, Bronze Working after that.

That's sounds good to me, praying that when it's time to research BW, we'll have contact with a friendly civ with knowledge of it.