14-11-2002 09:44									#1
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discuss in here how we should handle science in the early stages of the game

	15-11-2002 01:48									#2
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Honestly, some of this depends on civ choice, which has yet to be made (I know, we're leaning toward the Iroquois, but AFAIK that isn't final). A civ's starting techs really can change how you go about things.

Also crucial are our neighbors, with whom we can either buy/trade tech, or from whom we can take it. I would LOVE to have India nearby. If we were say, Egypt we could trade masonry + gold for alphabet, then beat writing out of them, while beelining up the Monarch route. Writing could be important if we have a mix of humans and AIs on our landmass - embassies will allow alliances. It would be wonderful to sick the Romans on somebody (such as.... Lux whateverthe****) and hit them at the same time. Muwahaha!

It appears unlikely that we will be a scientific civ, and BW is KEY. Therefore, I would argue for BW as our first research goal if we're not sci. If we encounter a sci civ, definitely trade for it. It's a helluva lot easier to hold off barbs and/or early human rushes if we have spears. It also allows the Colossus and it's on the way to IW.

-Arrian

	15-11-2002 03:37									#3
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Arrian- remember, we don't actually need and Embassy to have an alliance with a human civ- we could email the team and make the agreemen while bypassing those game mechanics.
But, i'm not sure of this will be allowed- but IMO it should, as i can't see any real reason why we need to have an embassy with a player- that's just some game mechanic to make you sweat a bit and reach those otherwise less-useful tech. We should bypass those mechanics whenever possible to make the game smoother and more fun.

As for BW- i see this as a must early on- against barbs and any unsuspected early strikes from a warmongering civ, but should be prioratized depending on our standing, especially against barbs, as we might find that we actually don't need real defense early on, and trading for it could be a better course of action, especially since we'll probably chose the Iro's, our early ancient miitary will be a mobile attack force rather than strong defensive one, so this advantage in the field of mobility should also be considered against investment in spearmen units.

	15-11-2002 03:43									#4
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Mobile units are very effective, particularly against the AI, but if we find ourselves near a human opponent, we will face counterattack by THEIR mounted troops. MWs (again, assuming I lose the civ choice debate) die horribly when they are defending against horsemen.

On the embassy thing, I was limiting that to a specific circumstance: an AI civ with an ancient UU on our continent AND a human team we want to kill on our continent. Then an embassy could be a huge advantage (or lack thereof. If the other team has an embassy and we don't, we could wind up getting kicked in the ass by Immortals or somesuch thing).

-Arrian

	16-11-2002 01:14									#5
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Regardless of civ, I think The Wheel and Iron Working should be top priorities. If a resource-denial attempt works (no Iron for Persia), bye-bye neighbour (hopefully human, but AI will do). Coupled with the Expansionist trait, this early science push allows us to be the first to know where all the Ancient resources are on the entire continent. Very important.


Dominae

	16-11-2002 01:33									#6
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True. I would advocate bronze -> iron, hoping for the wheel from a hut if we are the Iroquois.

If we are Egypt, I'd probably advocate bw, iw first, but I could see doing the wheel first.

If we played Persia, we could choose IW right off the bat, and consider an very early immortal strike if the situation is right.

-Arrian

	16-11-2002 04:20									#7
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With Persia I always prefer to wait a bit with those immortals, save some money, rush the first civ with either archers or horsies, and mass upgrade warriors when they will come through best. You can of course research IW quickly, which is especially useful to see you're not resource denied, but in that case I wouldn't connect the iron at the first chance you got.

Bronze would in all cases be high on my list of techs we need, after which choices depend somewhat on which civ, and which map we get.

Long term goals idem: the two main goals would be Monarchy or literature, but it depends on the game which of the two to go for.

DeepO

Last edited by DeepO on 16-11-2002 at 04:36

	18-11-2002 20:12									#8
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Yeah, we will have to decide relatively early on whether we're going the Monarchy route or the longer, more involved, Republic + Literature route. Hopefully, by the time we've researched BW we will have an idea of the lay of the land, and can make an informed choice based upon geography, neighbors, etc.

-Arrian

	02-12-2002 03:08									#9
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We have a GREAT start!

This, btw, is exactly why I wrote the thread "Managing your civ for the benefit of your UUs" here:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=69016

I *cannily* did NOT write about Egypt, although that's what I was originally thinking of, in regard to this game.

Does this starting position impact our research path? Obviously we need to explore some, but based on the initial terrain I could make an argument for starting with The Wheel...

***IMPORTANT***

Whatever we select to research, don't forget that in PTW you can start researching ON THE SAME TURN as you found the capitol.

	02-12-2002 03:24									#10
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I second The Wheel. That's usually my first choice if I'm Egypt. Even if I'm not Egypt, because it's (except Japan) not a tech civs start with, but SP rules don't count here.

	02-12-2002 03:29									#11
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I would think the other civs will EAGERLY want to trade for it, but no one else gets the immediate benefit we do.

	02-12-2002 03:32									#12
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The Wheel sounds good.

Definitely not Bronze Working because all AI civs immediately research that tech first and we might be able to get it for cheap after we have made a few contacts.

	02-12-2002 04:04									#13
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Uh... what AI civs?

GS: Egypt - Ceremonial Burial and Masonry
Vox: Persia - Bronze Working and Masonry
Lego: Carthage - Alphabet and Masonry
GoW: China - Warrior Code and Masonry
Lux: Ottoman - Bronze Working and Masonry
Demo: Arabia - Pottery and Ceremonial Burial
Roleplay: Spain - Alphabet and Ceremonial Burial

1) I say we avoid researching anything that another civ already knows.

2) We KNOW we're going to want The Wheel inside of our first three techs.

3) That's an awful lot of plains... I predict horses to the SW of our capitol.

	02-12-2002 04:16									#14
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It will be forever before we have contact with any civs but our neighbours.

Civ contacts are guarded almost as closely as Maps in most MP games. Especially all human games. btw, this makes Map Making a priority for obvious reasons.

We will have to research Bronze ourselves, most likely.

	02-12-2002 04:35									#15
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Sorry, nye, I wasn't clear... I am focused for the moment on just the first couple of techs. When I said "I say we avoid researching anything that another civ already knows" I was really just referring to the first tech research choice.

Once we know who our neighbors are we can develop a better long-term research strategy.

I wouldn;t be shocked if we were able to trade The Wheel for BW, especially considering that 4 out of 6 competitors have later-stage horse UUs.

	02-12-2002 05:00									#16
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Good plan. I think i agree that we should go Wheel first.

What if GoW is next to us? Archers off the bat. Given the plains all around us, maybe a mobile, offensive defense would be better.

	02-12-2002 05:03									#17
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Good plan. I think i agree that we should go Wheel first.

Did you start the research on Wheel in the first turn? Or are you going to do it next time?

	02-12-2002 05:04									#18
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fp, we need a city first

	02-12-2002 05:04									#19
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I advocated BW as our first tech only because it offers spearmen, and I'm concerned about the possibility of an early rush. Freakin' Glory of War did choose China, which just screams "archer rush."

Either BW or the Wheel works for me, but I'd prefer BW.

-Arrian (confused)

	02-12-2002 05:05									#20
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quote: Originally posted by alva848 fp, we need a city first

oh for ****'s sake how dumb am i tonight?!?!?!?!

	02-12-2002 05:06									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Uh... what AI civs?

No AI? I think I have some catching up to do...

With the Wheel as our first technology we can build a few War Chariots for exploration. It's important to get as many contacts as we can soon, so we don't have to research technologies at full price when others already know them. Don't you agree?

As for pumping out Archers, I would like to try to avoid very early war. I have no MP experience, but I think it would hurt both us and our opponents, wouldn't it?

	02-12-2002 06:22									#22
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Hey, I'm an MP-newbie too, but early war is fine ON OUR TERMS. (I think... to MP vets)

The first thing I'm really worried about is if we're next to GoW/China. We could be screwed out of the gates, with their ability to Archer Rush ASAP before we can research even one tech. BTW, other than us, I think they made the smartest civ choice.

That said, NOT knowing who our neighbors are, after the first researched tech we can be defensive and slowmover (BW) or offensive and fastmover (Wheel), with additional tech trading benefits. Don't forget, we will potentially be facing Swords and Sword-equivalents at that point (my second big worry).

We've got time to decide, but given what we know now I lean toward "offensive defense" just in case.

As the Strat forum guys know, I am relatively obsessed with the early game... if it's OK with all, I'd like to send out an email to the less 'active' members (i.e., Vel) to get them all to pay attention this week.

	02-12-2002 06:39									#23
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I like the Wheel idea, WC will probably be better defenders than spearmen (particularly vs. slow attackers, e.g. archers), plus all the other obvious benefits (knowing the location of horses and having an offensive unit).
I'm not too worried about an archer attack. As long as we have a decent amount of warriors we should be able to repel them by waiting and attacking them (1 to 1, ours being lower cost). The best defense against this will be recon.

	02-12-2002 06:53									#24
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Randolph, I still laugh whenever I see your tagline... I'm lucky I guess (btw, my fiance is an unofficial GS fan, and more bloodthirsty than any of us).

I think WCs and Archers both cost 20 shields... the problem could be GoW/China being able to build them from turn 1. Assuming it takes us 40 turns to get The Wheel, they could conceivably (at 2 shields per turn in their capitol) come at us with 2 Archers before we can even START building WCs.

(BTW, what a difference considering human players versus AI civs!)

Will GoW be a neighbor? Are they that insane / aggressive / smart? Thank god they don't have Sir Ralph!!

The agreed-upon rules are that we have up to 24 hours per turn... I suggest that if Lego sends the game to nye tonight, we wait through tomorrow to get everyone's input on our first research choice, and also on what to do with our Worker.

	02-12-2002 07:22									#25
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Well three warriors have the statistical edge over 2 archers if the warriors are attacking, and they cost less. I see this as our best defense against an archer rush. Also remember that it will take some time for them to get to us even if they know exactly where we are (20 turn maybe? For 60 total. That should be enough time to prepare).

I'd like to play as quickly as possible, how many votes do we have for the wheel? I know it's more than just votes, it discussing any points.

	02-12-2002 14:32									#26
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Are we going to do this through a poll??

I'm happy to go with the wheel, I don't expect an archer rush either.

	02-12-2002 15:04									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Randolph I'm not too worried about an archer attack. As long as we have a decent amount of warriors we should be able to repel them by waiting and attacking them (1 to 1, ours being lower cost). The best defense against this will be recon.

If the attacker has researched or traded for Bronze Working, your Warriors will look bad if there are 1-2 Spearmen per stack of 4-6 Archers. Even more if they are vets. Believe me, I know a bit about this stuff .

	02-12-2002 16:02									#28
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True, but attempting an archer rush does mean, your own cities will be left behind empty(vulnerable).
I don't see to many people taking this risk.
Maybe in a normal MP/PBEM game, where if it back-fires, you congratulate the winner and start looking for a new game.

But this thing is quite unique and I doubt people are willing to bet all on just one horse(no pun intended ). They wanne stay in this for at least a couple of months

	02-12-2002 16:41									#29
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quote: Originally posted by alva848 But this thing is quite unique and I doubt people are willing to bet all on just one horse(no pun intended ). They wanne stay in this for at least a couple of months

So very true.

	02-12-2002 17:47									#30
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quote: Originally posted by alva848 True, but attempting an archer rush does mean, your own cities will be left behind empty(vulnerable). I don't see to many people taking this risk. Maybe in a normal MP/PBEM game, where if it back-fires, you congratulate the winner and start looking for a new game.

I wasn't talking about waging an Archer rush, but facing one. Randolph took it a bit too easy with that "take a few warriors and beat the archers" thing. And I don't know about the sanity of the other teams, so the danger may be real and we shouldn't neglegt it.